From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Apr 24 2005 - 16:42:48 BST
Khaled,
If philosophy were an art form, with only aesthetic objectives,
(unlike the drink-can shim in the ZMM example), then you'd have a
point.
When you say "Philosophy is the life we live" in supporting DMB, you
are in fact making precisely Matt's point too, and reinforcing it in
your dead poets example, where the contents of poem read, are as much
real life as any other experience, whatever an art critic says. But
that doesn't mean the "critic's" analysis is without value. It can
clearly get in the way prior to the experience, but once experienced,
it can help understand, explain, build, construct, synthesise, create
something new.
Naturally much art, poerty and literature has at least as much to
contribute to philosophy of real life truth as philsophy itself or
science or theology. But not all art (or philosophy) can have equal
value.
The point is whilst philosophy may be "the life we live" we must
believe some philosophy is better than others some lives lived closer
to truth. If we are going to compare and debate philosophies (or art)
it cannot be done in a vacuum ignoring philosophy (or art) that has
gone before it. It would be like posting a thought to this forum,
without reading anyone else's prior posts. Pointless.
I said very early on in this thread, before I ducked out, that this
looked like another pointless binary argument, as if either philosophy
or philosophology could exist without the other. There are good /
creative and bad philosophers and there are good / creative and bad
philosophologists.
Sorry, I lose the point of this thread, and your post reminded me of that fact.
Ian
On 4/24/05, khaled Alkotob <khaledsa@juno.com> wrote:
>
> DMB,
>
> DMB said:
> Philosophy is supposed to be about life and if your philosophy is about
> philosophy then it is not about life.
>
> And I see this same problem across the board. I love art, but I hate
>
> paintings that are ABOUT PAINTING. I hate poetry that is ABOUT POETRY. I
> hate music that is ABOUT MUSIC as well as movies ABOUT MOVIES. And this
> is what I mean by my complaints about what you post here. I get the
> distinct impression that your philosophy is ABOUT PHILOSOPHY and has very
> little to do with what's in your heart. It doesn't come from your life so
> much as from the books you've read.
>
> Matt:
> Are the books we read not part of our lives?
>
> As I quipped in my paper, "Why is the experience of a book relegated to a
> lower position than the experience of a hot dog?"
> I followed that with, "There can be no theoretical, universal reason for
> this (that would be the kind of "intellectualizing of its hosts behavior"
> that Pirsig condemns), though we can give practical, context-dependent
> reasons. For instance, in Pirsig's case it is imperative that his quest
> for inner peace cross through the history of philosophy. It is important
> for him to engage in conversation with the great, dead philosophers to
> achieve a measure of wisdom on how to deal with them. This is purity for
> his heart, not the heart of philosophy."
>
> So, say what you will that what I write is dead and boring and lifeless.
> But that doesn't mean its lifeless to other people, like myself, that are
> brought to life by the same things, like the reading of a book. Same
> thing goes for the art, poetry, music, and movies you don't like. Some
> people do like them because that's what's in their hearts. Those
> "practical, context-dependent reasons" are _personal_ reasons. Nobody
> can tell you, in a broad sense, whether you are doing philosophy
> correctly or the right way because philosophy is deeply personal. And
> that's what Pirsig's spirit says. And that's what I've been trying to
> repeat, in my own lifeless, substanceless way, against other people here
> and against a certain general drift in Pirsig's writings that lends
> comfort to those people.
>
> You see what I'm saying?
>
> Matt
>
> Khaled:
> Early in the book, Pirsig tells the story of the attempt to fix John
> Sutherlad's loose handlebars by using a shim made out of a beer can. Of
> course Sutherland would have no part in getting his bike fixed by a part
> not out the BMW factory.
> Pirsig goes on to explain why the shim made from the beer can is the
> PERFECT fix for tightening the handlebars.
>
> I think this is the point DMB is trying to make. Sometimes big words and
> concepts get in the way of seeing the truth. Philosophy is the life we
> live.
>
> In the movie "Dead Poet Society", the teacher (robin willimas) asks his
> students to open their books and tear out the introduction. The editors
> of the book were trying to explain what poetry is. They were trying to
> establish an artificial explanation to the methods used AFTER the author
> had written the piece. It's no different than the art critic attempting
> to insert his interpretation after the painter was done. A good painter
> would have poured his talents and feelings into the piece with very
> little regard to a plan. Yes some former training is needed, but that is
> long gone, and now it can be applied without thinking about it.
>
> Philosophy, is but the tool. Just like I the photographer who had to
> learn how to use the camera, when i am doing the person's portrait, I am
> no longer thinking film and lens, I am out to capture the character. Make
> a photo that shows a face with a soul in it.
>
> KSA
>
>
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