From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Apr 28 2005 - 01:06:45 BST
On 27 Apr 2005 at 14:39, hampday@earthlink.net wrote:
Without naming names, I think most of us put a higher priority on our
personal beliefs, whether they're validated by science-based reason
or not. But since what we believe is experiential, it's also by
definition "empirical".
msh asks:
O, go ahead and name names: I can take it.... :-)
Your argument from this point forward turns on a misunderstanding of
the word "empirical," and on a subtle shift in the meaning of the
word "feel."
I've seen no definition of the word "empirical" which allows for your
claim that beliefs are experiential. I experience the smell of
coffee or the taste of chocolate; I feel pain and fear and love.
But in what sense do I experience a belief? People can and do have
the experience of believing something, but is this the same as
empirical verifcation of the object of their belief? People say
things like "I feel the existence of God," but is this really a
feeling, a sensation in the empirical sense? It seems clear to me
that this is just another way of saying "I BELIEVE in God." I think
you are not recognizing an ambiguity in the way we use the word
"feel."
But FSOA let's assume that you are right about this, and I am wrong.
Let's assume that belief in a Creator is empirical evidence for the
existence of a Creator. Aren't we now obliged to say that there is
empirical evidence for the objects of ANY belief?
ham continues:
So, to the extent that beliefs are codified feelings that we all
experience, they [beliefs] are just as "reasonable" as the laws of
thermodynamics or the Pythagorean theorem.
msh asks:
Like Quality itself, the laws of thermodynamics and the Pythagorean
theorem are accessible to all of us in common, as is the internal
rationality of each of those ideas. Which belief or set of beliefs
are you suggesting is common to all of us? Or, to use your words,
which are the "codified feelings that we all experience."
ham continues:
To put it simply: The real issue is that those who hold to the view
of scientific materialism believe that matter is the primary reality.
msh:
I'd say scientists assume matter is the primary reality (over
consciousness) because there is lots of evidence to suggest it, while
there is nothing but inconsistent anecdotal evidence to suggest
otherwise. This does not preclude the possibility that evidence
supporting the primacy of consciousness will one day become
available. When and if that day comes, scientific theories will
change accordingly, just as they have through several such paradigm
shifts in the past.
ham:
Obviously, then, Essentialism and the MoQ are not in
the materialist camp, and both have the potential to transcend
material existence.
msh says:
O, I think there's room for day-to-day materialism in the MOQ. There
are empirical elements to the theory, remember, and at least some of
our experiences appear closely related to material objects.
ham:
Why, then, is this concept so unacceptable to many, if not most, of
the MD participants? Why, indeed, is MoQ's author himself reluctant
to embrace it?
It can only be because they can't find it within themselves to cut
thecord that binds them to scientific materialism and reap the
psychic benefits of a valuistic belief system.
msh says:
Isn't it possible that we are unwilling to suspend our analytical
faculties and make a leap of faith, just because yet another theistic
belief system promises us psychic rewards. We are not afraid to live
in a world where we're far from having all the answers, and , in
fact, consider such a world dramatically more dynamic and interesting
than your suggested alternative.
Thanks,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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