From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Sat Apr 30 2005 - 20:03:48 BST
[Arlo previously]
... So although it is pre-semiotic experience on the infants part, it is still
experience to culturally valued sensations.
[Platt]
> Yes, to some extent, no doubt. The point I would make is that the capacity to
express preferences is an intrinsic property of static patterns, from inorganic
on up, and this capacity is characteristic of consciousness.
[Arlo]
Agree. But... maybe its this word, "consciousness", that's bothering me. To me,
"consciousness" implies "identity awareness", that is to be conscious something
has to have an awareness of "I am". It doesn't have to be a symbolic awareness,
as I'd say my dog (for example) has some awareness that he is distinct from the
sofa he is sleeping on, even if he lacks a symbolic "I am" in this awareness.
But this a gray area for me, one I have not fully thought out, so I'm not
making any claims, just telling you what the word implies to me at this point
in my thinking.
Anyways, when you say that the capacity to express preferences, from inorganic
on up, is a characteristic of consciousness, that's where I stop and think
"does a quartz crystal have 'consciousness'"? Does an amoeba? Does a planet
repsonding to inorganic quality we call "the law of gravity"? This is why I
questioned the use of "conscious designer" in your support of ID. It implies an
aspect of cognition, consciousness- I am, that I don't personally ascribe to
Pirsig's Quality.
Your thoughts?
[Arlo previously]
Maybe a little. You are saying that patterns (inorganic) emerged following
the Big Bang are a result of the DQ force? I would agree with this
[Platt]
> Yes. And also that the DQ force created the Big Bang..
[Arlo]
Agree. Although... to be honest, I'm on the fence with the whole Big Bang thing.
I read Hawking's "Brief History" and I like the idea of our "universe" being
described as a "bubble" (possibley blown out of the end of a black hole in some
other universe) in a swirling sea of bubbles. But, of course, this just backs
up the discussion one level. And I am no Hawking expert to really support or
defend (or perhaps even understand) what he argues. But, regardless, yes, DQ
was the creating force.
[Arlo previously]
Then you say that the value experiences we have suggest a larger design? I
think this is where I am getting confused, maybe because I'm not sure what you
mean by "if you believe patterns are designs"?
[Platt]
> To me a pattern is synonymous with a design, like the Merriam-Webster
> dictionary says in defining "pattern:" "4) an artistic, musical, literary or
mechanical design or form." (Note the aesthetic connotation that fits nicely
with Pirsig's attraction to high quality harmony.)
[Arlo]
That makes sense. I think the trouble I have with "design" is that it is used
often to imply an external "conscious designer", and given what I said above
about my interpretation of "conscious", I think that's where I get stopped. To
say that we see a pattern, or a design, and say this pattern is attributable to
DQ, I have no problems with.
But to say that we see a pattern, or a design, and say this pattern is
attributable to a conscious designer, does not sound right to me.
[Platt]
> But, referring to your point about "conceptualizations" above, I guess we
should bear in mind that patterns and designs are conceptualizations, too.
[Arlo]
Yes, see, this is where I have problems accepting "design" as "proof of a
"conscious designer". Patterns and designs "do not exist", we sort them and
give them names and recognize them as "patterns", but I don't believe them to
be anything more than conceptualizations we use to describe quality (whether
inorganic, biological, social or intellectual). Of course, like I said, this is
an area where I am only thinking through things, so my statements are presented
here only as "thinking outloud", not definitive statements of belief.
Arlo
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