From: Allen Barrows (allen_barrows@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun 13 2005 - 14:02:05 BST
Hi Allen
It isn't easy to avoid such things, but it goes for all levels. It
sounds as a value "something" creates the patterns, while it it
really is one and the same.
Hello Bo, I find myself wishing to ask you how can you get division from a monism. DQ/sq achieves this but Quality does not.
Intellect is supposed to be part of the static realm of MOQ's
overall Dynamic/Static system and by no twist of logic can it (the
MOQ) be seen as a sub-set of its own
The MOQ is a sq pattern which was made by a Dynamic process of symbolic manipulation - DQ/sq in action so to speak.
The MOQ is included at the intellectual level and is not a subset of itself because the other levels are experienced and simply accounted for at the top level with a symbol.
> I think this is why people reckon the MOQ is
> idealism,
Yes! That's my opinion too, but Pirsig has repeatedly denied
idealism as having any special affinity for the MOQ.
It is not my position even though i understand other people misunderstand. The answer is simple when you put experience first then experience is the basis of your metaphysics but idealists place ideas first and move out from that.
As i just said, experience includes other patterns other than the intellectual in the MOQ but the intellect can still designate a symbol for them.
The MOQ clearly states that experience is first and it is then a mistake to equate this with idealism.
The MOQ indicates many experiences which are not patterns of intellect and one very important area is social patterns. Both idealists and materialists have huge problems describing what they are but the MOQ deals with them and it does so by begining with experience and not ideas.
> because even when it says there are social and organic and
> inorganic values all these are suggestions being made by the
> intellect.
This is intellect peering down at the lower levels imposing its own
S/O value upon them, seeing everything as intellectual
suggestions about a something "out there". Let's not be fooled by
it.
This is far too rapid for me bo. I must repeat i have not suggested that everything is intellectual i have said and Lila says too that experience is first.
If we chart how this much later process happens we can see it has been taught to us by our parents which is to say our biological and social experience. The intellect is free to wander anywhere it likes and that is to say values and it does not value in here or out there it is not peering down it is soring up towards the sky. The sky is boundless and free and open and the rules for this flight are as follows:
The block at the top [of the above MOQ diagram] contains such static
intellectual patterns as theology, science, philosophy, mathematics. The
placement of the intellect in this position makes it superior to society, biology
and inorganic patterns but still inferior to Dynamic Quality. (Pirsig, 1995a,
p.14)
Intellectual values include truth, justice, freedom, democracy and trial by jury.
Both the subject-object metaphysics and the MOQ are patterns lying entirely
within the intellectual level of evolution. Other patterns in the same level are
Euclidian and Riemann geometry, the branches of scientific knowledge, and the
written laws. (Pirsig, 1998b)
> People then can not figure out why everything is just
> intellect.
"People" of this group seems just too willing. ;-)
I have not detected this willingness Bo. Those who accept experience is the start see through the misunderstandings. It is certainly not argued for in Anthony McWatts book for example. In fact his book argues well against such a misunderstanding it seems to me. I would ask anyone who says the MOQ is idealism to read his book.
> Social organic and inorganic patterns do not call
> themselves anything the only thing that can represent them and not be
> them are intellectual patterns. As Anthony McWatts book says
Your'e right organic and inorganic levels were from before
language (maybe the social level too for the most part) but this
doesn't mean that they only exist in "language". You see, by now
you have made language all there is, which is the subjective half
of SOM.
Again i must stop and catch my breath you move too rapidly Bo. I must gently take your arm and beg you to rest a moment. Where have i said that language is all there is.
Quite the opposite in fact i have said experience is first. Please do not skip past this most important point.
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