From: Allen Barrows (allen_barrows@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed Jun 15 2005 - 01:39:16 BST
Hello Mike, this is spilt into 2
1
Mike: What I am suggesting is that SOL may be true from our Western perspective, but that there may possibly be more to discover.
Allen - This is an interesting thought to me. The SOL is not any part of the Metaphysics of Quality it is a suggestion made by Bo. The SOL is not even what the MOQ calls SOM.
It is SOM which has been dominant in the West and you have put your finger on the rest well it seems to me Mike.
Mike: The infiltration of Western culture into all areas of the world in which there exist suffient social developments to support alternative intellectual patterns
Allen - Just a quick mention that Culture in the MOQ is both social and intellectual patterns so you are right to make a connextion between society and intellectual patterns. Bo adds the following...
Bo - "Alternative intellectual patterns" This is a most odd formulation.
Allen - There is not the slightest thing odd about it Mike as far as the MOQ goes. The Therevada tradition from India is a high quality intellectual pattern and may even be seen as a for runner of MOQ like approaches to experience.
From Anthony McWatts book page 168:
In other words, Hinayani (or ‘Theravada’)150 Buddhists realised that the self (corresponding to Descartes’ ‘I’) is an abstraction from Dynamic Quality and, as such, a conditioned entity. The significance of Pirsig’s employing the phenomenological orientated Buddhist ontology rather than Descartes’ ontology is that it allows the conceptualisation of reality beyond the mind-matter format. As such, mental substances and material substances can be perceived as ontologically identical i.e. as intellectual quality patterns and inorganic quality patterns respectively.
And from page 79:
Dr.Walpola Rahula (1910-1997) was one of the most revered and eminent Buddhist monks of Sri Lanka. He received his doctorate from the Sorbonne and was the Chancellor of the University of Buddhist and Pali Studies in Colombo. (Peiris, 1997) In 1964, Rahula was instrumental in establishing the first North American Theravada temple in Washington D.C. and, at Northwestern University, became the first Buddhist monk to hold a professorship in America. Since the 1960s, Rahula’s text What the Buddha Taught has become a set textbook for numerous American universities. (Piyananda, 1997)
Bo: But suddenly when it comes to intellect the strange "alternative" intellectual patterns pops up.
Allen - There are no alternative intellectual patterns strange or otherwise Mike. Intellectual patterns are made of the same stuff as inorganic organic and social patterns in the MOQ that is to say sq evolving in response and toward DQ. Intellectual patterns are sq whether Theravada or Descartes but some are better quality.
Bo: All this is based on the "thinking" fallacy a mixing of intelligence and intellect.
Allen - Anyone can shout falacy but it must be argued for. The MOQ is happy to argue that thinking is not simply equated with intellect. Thinking has social and intellectual patterns associated with it.
Bo: No, the intellectual LEVEL is what is described in ZMM as the emergence
of SOM.
Allen - If you read ZMM this statement happens not within its cover. It is not said at all. Bo has made this a deduction of his own reasoning faculty and it would be much fair if he told you so rather than leave you with the impression that this is actually stated in the book Mike. I advise you to read Anthony McWatts book and you will not find what Bo says any where there either.
Mike: Basically, I'm saying that, given our lack of static "parameters" in intellect at this point in its evolution, and given our limited cultural perspectives, it may be extremely difficult to define the intellectual level. But I'm not saying that we shouldn't try! I'll continue to read with great interest.
Allen - Good point but DQ can never be defined and intellectual patterns are responding to this all the time. Therefore we can only ever have a static snapshot then poof its moved on a bit. Something to think about Mike?
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