From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Jun 22 2005 - 07:05:13 BST
Matt / Bo / Scott, et al, two points ....
(1) This is not a beauty contest - I'm not concerned with how original
Pirsig is or isn't, I'm concerned with whether he spoke sense or not,
when it comes to reality.
(2) Interesting that whatever language we use or whatever angle we
approach it - linguistic / epistemological or objective / ontological
- all the issues still collide in "mind" ... dualist or not ... the
subject's mind, or ... ? (Scott, you make a lot of points that ring
true. The fact that Pirsig - and others - got us to focus on the
triplet event of immediate experience, doesn't automagically remove
this "quality" entity from the rest of the problem.)
Ian
On 6/21/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Bo, Matt
>
>
> --- Matt:
> --- If I understand your reasoning about the SOL-MoQ, it looks something
> --- like this: SOM used to be the truth of us. We used to exist in the
> --- SOM-Reality. But the creation of the MoQ has made it possible to
> --- move from one
> --- reality, the SOM-Reality, to another, the Quality-Reality. When
> --- making that
> --- switch, from SOM-Reality to Quality-Reality, we are literally
> --- entering a
> --- new reality. That new reality is the SOL-MoQ. The SOL-MoQ is
> --- simply
> --- short-hand for all the machinations we make in our reality, the
> --- Quality-Reality, and the SOL-MoQ is the correct
> --- interpretation of our new reality.
>
> Bo replied:
> --- I had to indent this because this is just spot on. I could not have
> --- formulated it better myself (in my own language)
>
> And....
>
> --- We are at the end of our respective tethers now. These last
> --- questions of yours are answered earlier. But again I must thank
> --- you for your willingness to explore the SOL to its source, never
> --- ever before have I seen it laid out so perfectly. What a relief!
> --- And anyone who hasn't dropped his/her "common sense"
> --- because Pirsig seemingly has rejected the SOL interpretation will
> --- see that it is the MOQ.
>
> Paul: I don't wish to take anything away from Matt's perspicuous writing
> here but the response from Bo is a good example of one of the big
> frustrations I have with him. Please see the below, which I recently
> resent:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: skutvik@online.no
> Date: Sat Aug 30 2003 - 08:13:44 BST
>
> 28 Aug [Paul] wrote:
>
> > You refer to "inside the MOQ" and a "Quality Universe" as if it were
> > somewhere other than where we already are, right here, right now, all
> > around and inside. I think your "Metaphysics is Reality" belief is a
> > major problem.
>
> [Bo:]
> Yes, I do. Existence have this tendency to change in accordance with the
> range of view. Remember the example of a bug inside the sock?
> After it being turned inside out, reality changed from a smelly confined
> world to one of enormous vistas. It was the same yet changed fundamentally.
>
> A more real example is the cosmology of the "ancient world" (Social
> Reality) The "underworld" extended forever downwards and the sky forever
> upwards, then came the Copernican Revolution (Intellectual
> Reality) when these things were relativized; The same "here, right now, all
> around and inside" yet changed fundamentally. If this important phenomenon
> that Pirsig points to is a "problem" to you ...?
>
> > I think your logic goes:
>
> I printed this out and brought it with me on a walk to read it in portions.
> Even one's own view looks a little unfamiliar seen through another person's
> eyes ....
>
> > "If the MOQ includes "Dynamic Quality"
> > and Dynamic Quality is outside of static intellectual patterns and the
> > MOQ is reality itself then the MOQ is also outside of static
> > intellectual patterns"
>
> ....but this is as close as it comes!!!
>
> > This also explains why you have come up with the SOLAQI argument. You
> > extend the logic above in this way..
>
> Exactly!
>
> > "and because I can think about the MOQ (which is outside of static
> > intellectual patterns) then static intellectual patterns cannot be
> > synonymous with thoughts"
>
> Damn! This Is GOOD!
>
> > So to keep it all intact, you reduce mind to an era of "subject-object
> > thinking" and create a fifth level
>
> Even if I have backed down on the 5th level to a rebel intellectual pattern,
> this is exactly it.
>
> > or a "Quality Universe" in which
> > the MOQ is not "merely a metaphysics" but has replaced SOM as "reality
> > itself", just as you think the intellectual level once replaced the
> > social level as "reality itself".
>
> GREAT!!!
>
> > What I think you fail to see is that the metaphysical term "Dynamic
> > Quality" is a STATIC INTELLECTUAL REFERENCE to reality which is
> > understood by direct everyday experience WITHOUT THOUGHTS OR WORDS.
> > When you understand what it refers to you don't actually need the word
> > anymore.
>
> Maybe I was dizzy from your perfect understanding of the SOLAQI, but when it
> comes to this (critical) part ...hmmm. You see I'm not able to understand
> that anyone can understand it as well as you do and NOT "love" it ;-)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now, isn't this almost exactly the same as the conversation Bo and Matt are
> having? But it doesn't stop here, you can go back through the archives and
> see the same thing occurring again and again -- i.e. Bo presents his ideas
> in cryptic, often unfinished (i.e."........."), statements about the "true
> MOQ" and his correspondent-of-the-day gradually pieces together an
> understanding which is presented in a summation of "the SOL." Following its
> approbation, this summation is then taken by Bo as an ipso facto acceptance
> of the ideas!
>
> Nuts.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
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