From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Wed Jun 22 2005 - 09:07:18 BST
Ian,
You posted this as a reply to my mail (although didn't address it to me) but
I can't see any relevance in your "reply" to what I wrote. So I'll assume
you replied to the wrong thing?
Regards
Paul
--- -----Original Message-----
--- From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk [mailto:owner-
--- moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of ian glendinning
--- Sent: 22 June 2005 07:05
--- To: moq_discuss@moq.org
--- Subject: Re: MD Matt's Critique of the SOL.
---
--- Matt / Bo / Scott, et al, two points ....
---
--- (1) This is not a beauty contest - I'm not concerned with how original
--- Pirsig is or isn't, I'm concerned with whether he spoke sense or not,
--- when it comes to reality.
---
--- (2) Interesting that whatever language we use or whatever angle we
--- approach it - linguistic / epistemological or objective / ontological
--- - all the issues still collide in "mind" ... dualist or not ... the
--- subject's mind, or ... ? (Scott, you make a lot of points that ring
--- true. The fact that Pirsig - and others - got us to focus on the
--- triplet event of immediate experience, doesn't automagically remove
--- this "quality" entity from the rest of the problem.)
---
--- Ian
---
--- On 6/21/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
--- > Bo, Matt
--- >
--- >
--- > --- Matt:
--- > --- If I understand your reasoning about the SOL-MoQ, it looks
--- something
--- > --- like this: SOM used to be the truth of us. We used to exist
--- in the
--- > --- SOM-Reality. But the creation of the MoQ has made it possible
--- to
--- > --- move from one
--- > --- reality, the SOM-Reality, to another, the Quality-Reality.
--- When
--- > --- making that
--- > --- switch, from SOM-Reality to Quality-Reality, we are literally
--- > --- entering a
--- > --- new reality. That new reality is the SOL-MoQ. The SOL-MoQ is
--- > --- simply
--- > --- short-hand for all the machinations we make in our reality,
--- the
--- > --- Quality-Reality, and the SOL-MoQ is the correct
--- > --- interpretation of our new reality.
--- >
--- > Bo replied:
--- > --- I had to indent this because this is just spot on. I could not
--- have
--- > --- formulated it better myself (in my own language)
--- >
--- > And....
--- >
--- > --- We are at the end of our respective tethers now. These last
--- > --- questions of yours are answered earlier. But again I must thank
--- > --- you for your willingness to explore the SOL to its source, never
--- > --- ever before have I seen it laid out so perfectly. What a relief!
--- > --- And anyone who hasn't dropped his/her "common sense"
--- > --- because Pirsig seemingly has rejected the SOL interpretation will
--- > --- see that it is the MOQ.
--- >
--- > Paul: I don't wish to take anything away from Matt's perspicuous
--- writing
--- > here but the response from Bo is a good example of one of the big
--- > frustrations I have with him. Please see the below, which I recently
--- > resent:
--- >
--- > --------------------------------------------------------
--- >
--- > From: skutvik@online.no
--- > Date: Sat Aug 30 2003 - 08:13:44 BST
--- >
--- > 28 Aug [Paul] wrote:
--- >
--- > > You refer to "inside the MOQ" and a "Quality Universe" as if it were
--- > > somewhere other than where we already are, right here, right now,
--- all
--- > > around and inside. I think your "Metaphysics is Reality" belief is a
--- > > major problem.
--- >
--- > [Bo:]
--- > Yes, I do. Existence have this tendency to change in accordance with
--- the
--- > range of view. Remember the example of a bug inside the sock?
--- > After it being turned inside out, reality changed from a smelly
--- confined
--- > world to one of enormous vistas. It was the same yet changed
--- fundamentally.
--- >
--- > A more real example is the cosmology of the "ancient world" (Social
--- > Reality) The "underworld" extended forever downwards and the sky
--- forever
--- > upwards, then came the Copernican Revolution (Intellectual
--- > Reality) when these things were relativized; The same "here, right
--- now, all
--- > around and inside" yet changed fundamentally. If this important
--- phenomenon
--- > that Pirsig points to is a "problem" to you ...?
--- >
--- > > I think your logic goes:
--- >
--- > I printed this out and brought it with me on a walk to read it in
--- portions.
--- > Even one's own view looks a little unfamiliar seen through another
--- person's
--- > eyes ....
--- >
--- > > "If the MOQ includes "Dynamic Quality"
--- > > and Dynamic Quality is outside of static intellectual patterns and
--- the
--- > > MOQ is reality itself then the MOQ is also outside of static
--- > > intellectual patterns"
--- >
--- > ....but this is as close as it comes!!!
--- >
--- > > This also explains why you have come up with the SOLAQI argument.
--- You
--- > > extend the logic above in this way..
--- >
--- > Exactly!
--- >
--- > > "and because I can think about the MOQ (which is outside of static
--- > > intellectual patterns) then static intellectual patterns cannot be
--- > > synonymous with thoughts"
--- >
--- > Damn! This Is GOOD!
--- >
--- > > So to keep it all intact, you reduce mind to an era of "subject-
--- object
--- > > thinking" and create a fifth level
--- >
--- > Even if I have backed down on the 5th level to a rebel intellectual
--- pattern,
--- > this is exactly it.
--- >
--- > > or a "Quality Universe" in which
--- > > the MOQ is not "merely a metaphysics" but has replaced SOM as
--- "reality
--- > > itself", just as you think the intellectual level once replaced the
--- > > social level as "reality itself".
--- >
--- > GREAT!!!
--- >
--- > > What I think you fail to see is that the metaphysical term "Dynamic
--- > > Quality" is a STATIC INTELLECTUAL REFERENCE to reality which is
--- > > understood by direct everyday experience WITHOUT THOUGHTS OR WORDS.
--- > > When you understand what it refers to you don't actually need the
--- word
--- > > anymore.
--- >
--- > Maybe I was dizzy from your perfect understanding of the SOLAQI, but
--- when it
--- > comes to this (critical) part ...hmmm. You see I'm not able to
--- understand
--- > that anyone can understand it as well as you do and NOT "love" it ;-)
--- >
--- > --------------------------------------------------------
--- >
--- > Now, isn't this almost exactly the same as the conversation Bo and
--- Matt are
--- > having? But it doesn't stop here, you can go back through the
--- archives and
--- > see the same thing occurring again and again -- i.e. Bo presents his
--- ideas
--- > in cryptic, often unfinished (i.e."........."), statements about the
--- "true
--- > MOQ" and his correspondent-of-the-day gradually pieces together an
--- > understanding which is presented in a summation of "the SOL."
--- Following its
--- > approbation, this summation is then taken by Bo as an ipso facto
--- acceptance
--- > of the ideas!
--- >
--- > Nuts.
--- >
--- > Paul
--- >
--- >
--- >
--- >
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--- >
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