From: Matt Kundert (pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jun 28 2005 - 12:48:52 BST
Bo,
I just wanted to pop this off quick before I get to the more nitty-gritty.
Bo said:
OK, intellect's "objective over subjective" half can relatively easily be
undermined by your "subjective over objective" counter-arguments (as well as
the other way round) but don't you realize that the last one is intellect
too?????? The greatest misunderstanding is that that the MOQ has an affinity
for the subjective aspect of SOM.
Matt:
Ok. We apparently do not understand each other, though I think more
accurately, you don't understand me (or Paul).
_You_ are keeping the subject/object distinction.
_I_ am not.
(I know you'll read that as fast as you want, but I typed it slow just in
case you could sense that.)
That's important. You think you understand this, but I don't think you
understand the consequences. Because you want to argue that the
subject/object distinction is terribly important, and most of everybody else
wants to follow Pirsig (who, I will argue in another post, does not think
the _mind_/_matter_ dualism is that important) in thinking that we can get
rid of it, you have to realize that we are _not_ going to take your
responses as self-evident. My arguments are _not_ "subjective over
objective" counter-arguments. They are intent on _eliminating_ the
contrast, which doesn't seem like a possibility that's occured to you
(despite Pirsig pointing this out in ZMM). If I _eliminate_ the contrast,
then we don't get to use _either_ side to characterize what comes out. Its
gone, eliminated--that was the point. Now, if you want to argue that my, or
anyone else's, arguments are sub-over-ob, you are going to have to do a lot
more work at establishing that because _I_ don't think they are. As long as
_I_ don't think they are, you have more work to do in trying to get our
understandings together. I have seen nothing in your expositions to help me
understand why I should think either _I'm_ a subjectivist or that the
subject-object distinction is inescapable (which is probably what you're
gonna' want to argue).
Matt said:
By the way, I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the
Greeks didn't have a distinction between (something like) subjective belief
and (something like) objective knowledge. What was the distinction between
opinio and episteme then?
Bo said:
I don't have ZMM here, but it says something to the effect "..until that
moment there had been no subject/object, no mind/matter ..etc. He might have
added ..no opinion/episteme dualism .
I may add. The pre-SOM ancients surely knew truth from lies, but the
opinion/knowledge dichotomy is part of the newfangled awareness ...the
Western at least.
Matt:
This is almost cute. Bo, weren't you the one recently who kept blasting
everybody for adhereing to the letter of Pirsig too much?
That being said, I must point out that Pirsig is not a scholar. That
doesn't mean that a lot of what he says is not broadly true. Or in detail
true. But if you want to push the detail part, you're gonna' have to do
your own research.
Now, I'm not positive about this---I haven't done exhaustive research---but
I don't think Socrates created the opinio/episteme distinction. I'm pretty
sure he took advantage of it, not created it.
But, barring that (because I do think the opinio/episteme distinction was
created at some point), I think it is a horrible, horrible mistake to
continue conflating the mind/matter distinction with the opinio/episteme
distinction. The two are not related as close as you think (I don't even
think Pirsig thinks they're as closely related as you think, but again,
that's for the other post).
Bo said:
The whole point in ZMM is that Socrates-Plato-Aristotles were the end of a
several-century development. Need we start arguing about THIS?
Matt:
No, we don't. I just think you are making very sloppy claims on behalf of
some true things. I think you need to tighten up your presentation. If you
did this, I think you might realize a few of the extraordinary claims you're
making and how far you're actually diverging from Pirsig, instead of the
pretend places.
Matt
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