From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Tue Jun 28 2005 - 15:22:30 BST
Bo,
--- I said that LILA presents [the intellectual level] as SOL and it does,
--- mostly as its objective part; as knowledge as science in other
--- words the "objective" half of SOM which is rejected as a
--- metaphysics, but is to be kept as a valuable "pattern". Do you
--- agree?
Paul: Generally, yes, but not entirely. I think LILA certainly presents
the intellectual level as such human efforts as science and philosophy with
an over-riding value of truth. Now I agree that most philosophies and
perhaps most scientists see truth in terms of correspondence but there are
also the coherence, deflationary, pragmatist, charitable etc. philosophies
of truth, so truth and objectivity are not synonymous.
And as I said in a recent post, Pirsig wants to *repudiate*, not endorse,
the epistemological use of S/O, whilst keeping the intellectual value of
truth.
--- Now if intellect is the "O" where is the "S"? And here is the
--- fulcrum point of our year-long discussion.
Paul: Intellect is *not* the epistemological "O", so its epistemological
"S" counterpart is not there either. This Greek menace is only haunting
you.
--- To keep SOM's
--- objective half as the intellectual level and then say that the S/O is
--- spread across the static hierarchy does not hold water. It must be
--- the intellectual level, all of it, every last bit - minus its
--- metaphysical quality that is.
Paul: Minus its metaphysical quality *and* its epistemological quality i.e.
SOM's objective half is not kept as the intellectual level at all, this is
your doing. Epistemological objectivity is redescribed in LILA as the moral
attempt to control social and biological values with respect to the
development of intellectual patterns.
--- And if so he should have railed against its subjective-idealist
--- aspect as much as its objective-materialist one. But to make it
--- sound as if the MOQ has any idealist affinity and forward some of
--- those "ideas comes first" comments only attracts NewAgers who
--- think its about harmony and peace on earth. It's about peace of
--- mind that comes from the greatest system forwarded since
--- Socrates and Plato instigated the SOM.
Paul: Idealism is left behind when one considers that ideas are produced by
value -- they are contingent on value. In this new context, one of the most
valuable ideas, one of the beliefs that will simply not allow one to
arbitrarily give it up because of its constantly experienced value, is that
there are plenty of patterns that are causally independent of, and
antecedent to one's beliefs. To repeat a phrase I've said to you before --
objects are cultural constructs but culture is a value construct.
Regards
Paul
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