From: hampday@earthlink.net
Date: Thu Jun 30 2005 - 22:29:41 BST
Reinier--
> If space exists it's either an entity or an attribute. Suppose it's an
entity, eg. it exists > independent of other things then why would it limit
itself to our expanding
> universe? Or why did it not exist before the big bang? From those
questions it's
> more likely ... an attribute of matter, substance. There has never been a
direct
> experience of space. We experience space because we experience substance
in
> dimensions.
Neither time nor space is an "entity" in the way that a substantive object
is an entity. These are properly considered the "dimensions" of existence
(despite the fact that space comes in three of its own dimensions). We
experience space as the absence of substance. In other words, it is
nothingness. It is the nothingness that separates one thing from another in
existence. This is critically important in understanding the intellect's
ability to differentiate the particulars or "existents" of which it is
sensible.
> Consider nothing, then consider the existence of one single smallest part
(whatever > that is), like a miniature big-bang, or a small-bang. Now how
big is space at this
> point? Is it limited by the dimensions of this part of is it all of a
sudden as big as
> our known universe? If it's limited to the part, then introduce a second
part.... see > the problem?
I see your problem as unnecessary since, even if the universe were finite,
the boundaries of space are infinite. Space is nothingness. The
nothingness that separates protons is no different than the nothingness that
separates stars. If you think of nothingness as the antithesis of absolute
"beingness", you'll get some insight as to what Essence is. (Not a
"definition", mind you, since what we call "being" is always finite.)
> The need for space in SOM is the existence of dimensional substance. The
quest
> to find what this substance [is] has evolved into quantum physics. Lord
knows
> what's gonna happen with space on that level...?
That's very true. When we attempt to explore the extremes of the cosmos we
exceed the capacity of our intellect to make sense of it. That's the
Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Human sensibility was not designed to
comprehend truth beyond the range of finitude. I believe there is a reason
for this that has to do with man's freedom. (You might want to read my
Freedom section when you've digested the Creation Hypothesis.)
> Most likely to consider space a concept then, it's [neither] matter nor
energy. But a concept for what? More likely it's a concept the brain
invented for survival.
Or, that the Designer provided for philosophical insight?
> We define space by the distance that light travels in a given time.
> We define time based on the behaviour of a cesium-atom (or other atom?)
>
> We do not directly experience space or time!
>
> For me this means a lot of contradiction regarding the concept of space.
But if you > apply the MoQ the contradictions disappear, but only if you no
longer consider
> the existence of absolute, geometric space.
I see some confusion in your thinking, not contradiction. I don't disagree
with your analysis; I just think you need to enlarge upon it. If the MoQ
helps you in this regard, more power to you. But don't expect Pirsig's
concept of Quality to clarify matters.
Let me provide a simple recipe. Ultimate reality is absolute and
undifferentiated. Things in existence are conditional and differentiated by
nothingness. Time and space are the dimensions by which your intellect
constructs the physical attributes of existence. Awareness of reality is
proprietary to each individual. Without that awareness there would be no
existence and no value. (Period.)
Now you can go back to Pirsig and resume your confusion.;-)
Regards,
Ham
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Jun 30 2005 - 22:30:16 BST