From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu Jul 07 2005 - 15:06:07 BST
Arlo,
Arlo:
> > > Can you show me statistics or measures that indicate that the US scores
> higher on these marks (in your previous reply) than Germany, Denmark,
> Sweden, and Japan? Or are you just going on patriotic "gut instinct" that
> America is better than everyone else in these measures?
Platt
> > Going by the observations of Denesh D'Sousa, a foreign observer.
Statistics never tell the whole story. For his observations see:
> www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-dsouza070203.asp
Arlo:
> I read the article. Some comments on his points:
>
> (1) America provides an amazingly good life for the ordinary guy.
> We are, as Marx would say, confusing material possessions with power and
> control.
Why am I not surprised you call on Marx to make your point?
> If that's what you believe, and I know it is, that's fine. But it assumes
> that material accumulation is the key to "better lives". I believe this to
> be patently false, and a manipultive device by those in power.
I know. Marxists believe the ordinary guy is too dumb to know what's
worthwhile and that the state should decide for him. .
> (2) America offers more opportunity and social mobility than any other
> country, including the countries of Europe.
> This is, again, patently false. Study after study has shown that for the
> *vast* majority, social mobility is a myth.
What studies?
> (3) Work and trade are respectable in America, which is not true elsewhere.
>
> Which is simply the most idiotic, and untrue, statement I've confronted in
> a while. On the CONTRARY, Americans treat their laborers as if they are an
> underclass. Just last year, Bush significantly cut the funding for
> vocational education at the K12 level. University populations are
> increasing to a point where an undergraduate degree is practically
> meaningless. We are not funneling talented people into vocational trades.
> We are doing the opposite. In the European countries where I've spent
> considerable time, Germany and Denmark, there is a far greater respect for
> trades and vocational education than in the US. This is, likely, due to an
> historical apprenticeship model that placed great value in skilled labor.
You and Denesh simply disagree. My experience is that in the U.S. it's
extremely rare for someone to consider plumbers, electricians, carpenters,
etc. as "underclass."
> (4) America has achieved greater social equality than any other society.
>
> The authors support of this is based on a belief that the average American
> would not kiss Bill Gates feet for $100. As, I suppose, all Canadians and
> Germans would do immediately and without hesitation. Since the author
> presents this soley as "I believe this be true" without offering any
> supportive evidence, I'll just ignore it. I know measures that can examine
> the validity of such a statement, but since the author feels no need to
> provide any support, why should I?
What measures?
> (5) People live longer, fuller lives in America.
>
> More lunacy. According to the CIA World Factbook, the US ranks ***46t*** in
> worldwide life expectancy.
>
> http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
Another source puts the U.S. at 38, proving the unreliability of
statistics you seem to rely on for determining quality.
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Life_expectancy_at_birth_dall.ht
m
Further, you ignored his observation about "fuller lives."
> As I've said, the one thing I have repeatedly argued as being the "best"
> thing about America is that, in most of her urban areas, one finds a great
> degree of multi-cultural, multi-ethnic and multi-lingual populations. If
> only the rest of America would see the value in this.
I fail to see any special value in "diversity." Where are your statistics
to show that diversity makes for a higher quality society?
> The remaining "assertions" I find so laughable as to be unworthy of
> comment. For those that may not have viewed the article:
I find your "unworthy of comment" comment to be laughable.
> Keep in mind, ALL of these are unsupported by any measure or proof other
> than "we are the best". Who can argue with blind patriotic ferver? But I
> wouldn't expect any real critical discourse in the National Review. Or the
> need for an author to support any claim in favor of America.
Again, statistics are unreliable measures of quality. For every study
purporting to prove one thing you can usually find another study proving
the opposite. Global warming is a case in point. About the only statistic
I find meaningful in terms of social quality are the numbers of men and
women who have fought and currently fight the enemies of freedom, most
especially the 3000 or so rag tag soldiers Continental Army who in 1776
saved the revolution from defeat by a victory at Trenton.
> > Furthermore, keep in mind Pirsig's observation that socialist cities are
> > "dull places."
>
> I can't speak to Pirsig's personal observations. But I have spent a lot of
> time in non-US cities. My experience is that Paris, Munich, Amsterdam,
> Rome, Cancun, Mexico City (to name some) very much NOT dull. Indeed, I've
> been to much duller places in America (Toledo, anyone?).
I've been to Prague, Venice and Florence and agree with Pirsig.
Platt
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