From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Fri Jul 15 2005 - 23:31:39 BST
Hi Scott, All,
> Scott:
> While I for the most part agree with this, it overlooks something, namely how
there could be an analogy in the first place.
This is an intriguing question. I'm not sure I have the ability to answer, but
I'll respond best I can. Analogy, as we think of them, are complicated
intellectual explanatory devices for understanding. But these are built on less
complicated analogues, on down until we (if possible) can imagine the "just
semiotic" emerging of humankind. Back to gestural motions and, mostly iconic or
indexical pattern recognitions (not sure if that is the right word). These are
the initial analogues, or sign-productions, that allowed two humans to focus
shared attention on a given object. From these analogues, more complicated
analogies emerged (over time) as more complicated semiosis was made possible
(through sign relations). Just want to make sure we are on the same page that
present day "analogies" didn't emerge from nothingness. They were built by more
and more iconic and idexical to finally (say) pointing behavior to draw shared
attention (this is Tomasello's argument).
Analogy "emerged", then, from very basic, likely pragmatic, accidents of humans
developing shared focus on a third object.
Scott:
> Also, it is given, I believe, with the assumption that if all human beings
were to vanish, there would be something left, on which analogizing has been
a-building, but which is not itself analogy (though any attempt on our part to
think about it would be analogizing). Shades of Kant, and a lingering remnant
of S/O thinking.
I disagree. Analogizing isn't based on "stuff" (materialism), its based on
response to a valuistic "force". Quality would remain, should all humans
disappear, but everything we "call reality" would disappear too. This reminds
me of Pirsig's "law of gravity floating in space" discussion. The "law of
gravity" is an analogy used to describe valued experience. Before the analogy,
there was only the value/Quality of the experience. We use "fish", to use a
material example, to describe a particular set of biological value patterns,
which would exist per se in the absense of humans, but "fish" would not.
Scott:
> Both problems are overcome by treating analogy (or more generally, semiosis)
as all there is. God (analogically speaking), as well as humanity, creates by
speaking analogically.
I know some theorists such as Lacan propose this (semiosis is all there is), I
don't know that Pirsig mandates going this far. Since I don't have any answe at
all, I'll need to let this one sit.
> Scott:
> While it is true that societies battle and suppress freedom in the name of
religion, the theologians (religious intellectuals) have never forgotten that
all their talk of God is analogical. Indeed, the notion that truth about
reality could be definitely established through logic and/or science is a
modernist notion.
Its too bad, then, that the vast majority of "religious" people around the world
aren't influenced by these theologians. I don't mean to sound cynical, but I
see a global return to literalness (a re-embracing of the literal "truth") in
religions; from christianity to muslim. Baptists represent the most expanding
religion in America (last time I checked). Their doctrine hardly has room for
"All this is an analogy". And nor do the Muslim fundamentalists. (I'm picking
on two major world religions, but I think these also represent the largest
growing religions, evidence that people are turning away an understanding of
religion as analogy, and towards one as "my religion as literal truth".
If you tell me there are theologicans actively working to counter this, I'll
believe you, but I have yet to experience it myself.
Arlo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Jul 15 2005 - 23:37:00 BST