From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Sun Jul 17 2005 - 04:14:35 BST
> msh 7-16-05:
> Ok, then I've misunderstood you. My apologies. Which part of this
> paragraph is wrong? Are you agreeing with me that government should
> regulate the behavior of its citizens when such behavior is shown to
> be destructive of society?
platt 7-16-05:
Sure, like capturing and punishing those who aided and abetted the
British terrorists. <snip the boiler plate yada, yada,yada...>
msh 7-16-05:
Let's focus on domestic issues within our own society, shall we? In
your opinion, is it ok to pass laws that enable the prosecution of
drunk drivers? How about someone standing on a public corner holding
a can of beer? How about someone in possession of drugs for personal
use? If so, why?
> platt 7-16-05:
> Taxes are a government intrusion into private lives backed by force.
> If you don't believe it, don't pay them and see what happens. Then
> write to tell us.
>
> msh 7-16-05:
> But you say below that it's ok to collect taxes for public services,
> if those taxes have been approved by a vote. Or have I
> misunderstood you, again? So what do you mean when you say "Taxes
> are a government intrusion into private lives backed by force?"
platt 7-16-05:
Exactly what I said. Whether voted for or not is irrelevant. Somehow the
ultimate nature of government -- legalized force -- escapes you.
msh 7-16-05:
If people in a society have voted for taxes, how is collecting taxes
an intrusion into private lives? This is like saying that someone
who has been invited into a home is an intruder. Or, are you saying
that people who didn't vote for the taxes are under no moral
obligation to pay them?
In a moral society, a truly representative government will use force
to prevent or punish illegal behavior only when necessary. But I
don't see this legalized use of force as the ultimate nature of
government. Governments do all kinds of things other than provide
the muscle for law enforcement; they create infrastructure and
provide emergency services for example. So your understanding of
government as "legalized force" seems terribly over-simplified, if
not irrational. Can you elaborate on why you have this skewed view
of government?
> msh 7-16-05:
> This is a Platteral Shift. Let's assume you have the opportunity to
> vote on a referendum which calls for a shifting of tax funds from non-
> life-saving police work to a service which provides life-saving drugs to
> people who need them and can't afford them.
>
> What would be your MOQ-based moral justification for voting against
> such a referendum?
platt 7-16-05:
What is non-life-saving police work?
msh 7-16-05:
This is needless diversion from the hypothetical question I've asked.
However, examples of non-life-saving police work might include the
issuance of parking tickets; just about everything in any major
city's vice squad; high speed pursuit of motorists who fail to stop
when there is no reason to believe that the motorist is a threat to
life (this particular activity qualifies not only as non-life-saving
but life-endangering); traffic control, which can be handled far less
expensively by other government employees. Etc.
platt 7-16-05:
(In my book, protecting property is life saving.)
msh 7-16-05:
Of this I have no doubt. However, such a belief is irrational, as
can be verified by observing the actions of police and fire services
who routinely save lives before property.
platt 7-16-05:
Who determines who needs drugs and can't afford them?
msh 7-16-05:
Doctors, and bank and employment records.
But this is all meaningless diversion. Let's say the referendum
spells out all the details to your satisfaction. You now have the
opportunity to vote on this referendum which calls for a shifting of
tax funds from non-life-saving police work to a service which
provides life-saving drugs to people who need them and can't afford
them. Would you support such a referendum? If not, what would be
your MOQ-based moral justification for voting against it?
> platt 7-16-05:
> Now if you want to impose Hillary care on U.S. citizens so they have
> to wait for weeks to get basic medical care, why don't you just come
> out an say so?
>
> Next you'll being saying the MOQ justifies a minimum guaranteed
> income for everybody. Geez.
>
> msh 7-16-05:
> I'll leave these remarks for the record. These comments are meant to
> disparage my argument without addressing it, and to evade honest
> discussion. I will ignore them.
platt 7-16-05:
You keep talking about "the record" as if our dialogue was talking place
on floor of the U.S. Senate. I can hear Ted Kennedy now: "Just for the
record, let it be shown . . . blah, blah, blah." What's the point of
"the record"?
msh 7-16-05:
The point is to make available, to anyone interested, the true course
of this debate. So people new to the list, or people who have
googled and found one of our exchanges, can go back and review the
full conversation, and decide for themselves just who is ducking and
running.
platt 7-16-05:
Furthermore, you keep tossing up hypotheticals, but when it comes to
issues that have actually been proposed, you duck and run. Seems to me if
you're really interested in a moral society, you'll take a stand on
genuine proposals.
msh 7-16-05:
I've proposed a number of societal changes, and have offered evidence
and argument in favor of them. These are available to anyone who
reviews the record, just as they are available to you.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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