Re: MD Materialism and DQ

From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Jul 18 2005 - 01:30:44 BST

  • Next message: Arlo J. Bensinger: "MD Music to MOQ to (was MOQ and the Moral Society)"

    Hi Paul,

    Hello, I'm beginning to feel invisible.

    When you use "reduced to" in your argument against materialism, you
    are being pejorative. I've said many times that I'm what would have
    been called a materialist, before the advent of modern physics. I
    prefer physicalist. Everything can be explained by physics, when you
    understand it well enough. That's not "reductionist" just
    self-evident.

    For me MoQ is entirely consistent with being physicalist - and yes I
    do have a straight face. It's only inconsistent for people who hang on
    the the ancient notion that the physical world is made of particles of
    matter, rather than quality interactions of information. (That's me
    being pejorative BTW.)

    Dennett, and Nietsche and Marx got it, and so did Schroedinger and
    probably Heiesenberg.

    Believing in the likelihood of consciousness beyond the matter of a
    brain is equally consistent. You don't need to believe its a prior
    causal existence. Just a (possible, probable even) fact. That's more
    speculative I'll grant, but not inconsistent.

    Ian

    On 7/18/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
    > Scott,
    >
    > I've modified and resent a previous version of this post.
    >
    > You said to Arlo:
    > >And how did the ability to respond emerge? How is any pattern observed?
    > >It looks to me like you are using Quality to wave away all the hard
    > problems.
    > >I
    > >think Pirsig does the same, which is why I see the MOQ as materialism
    > >plus DQ as a deus ex machina.
    >
    > Paul: Every so often you make this statement in one form or another.
    >
    > First of all, materialism is a system which says that everything can be
    > reduced to the behaviour of matter. In the MOQ, matter is explained as the
    > behaviour of one level of inorganic value patterns. Although events at the
    > biological, social or intellectual levels can, in principle, be described in
    > terms of events at the inorganic level this does not mean that that is "all
    > they are." So I don't see how you can say that the MOQ is materialism and
    > keep a straight face.
    >
    > In the MOQ, space and time are high quality intellectual patterns postulated
    > to exist at the inorganic level in order to successfully predict and
    > calculate the behaviour of inorganic patterns but it is proposed that the
    > value that produces and maintains both inorganic and intellectual patterns
    > is not dependent on the prior existence of a spatio-temporal universe. So
    > your problem of how something essentially and necessarily spatio-temporal
    > can be aware of space and time doesn't come up, as I see it.
    >
    > Secondly, with respect to DQ being a deus ex machina, if you recall from ZMM
    > it was DQ that Pirsig first set about trying to come to grips with. The
    > idea of the static patterns and evolutionary levels came later and so DQ was
    > not lowered onto the intellectual stage to wave away anything that Pirsig
    > found hard to explain in terms of static patterns.
    >
    > As we can see in LILA, it turned out that a concept of DQ could help shed
    > light on evolutionary growth, human cultural development, insanity, truth,
    > religion, morality etc. I would say that DQ, far from waving them away,
    > provides answers (or a new paradigm for answers) to a lot of hard questions.
    >
    > Finally, with respect to the waving away of hard questions, the path you
    > have taken is to assume that semiotic consciousness is fundamental to the
    > universe, has always been here but is too mysterious to explain. What can
    > we say to that? Bummer?
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Paul
    >
    >
    >
    >
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