From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Jul 17 2005 - 12:13:00 BST
Paul,
I wouldn't be so quick to discount the concept of collective "mind"
entirely, but I agree there is no doubt that here Pirsig is / was
talking about the colective cultural consciousness of communication
between minds ie literature, language, etc, and widely shared
world-views arising through them. (Memes for short.)
Ian
(PS when I say collective "mind" in the first clause, I am referring
to the idea of self-conscious thought emerging from something more
than a single biological brain. Sci-Fi for now, but not necessarily
for long.)
On 7/17/05, Paul Turner <paul@turnerbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Ham, Matt,
>
> >Somebody (Arlo?) quoted Pirsig:
> >"These fill the collective consciousness of all communicating mankind.
> >Every last bit of it."
> >
> >Ham asked:
> >I have two questions concerning this statement:
> >1) What does "collective consciousness" have to do with any of the
> >"analogues" previously quoted?
> >2) Why did Matt Kundert insist to me that he'd never seen the term and had
> >no idea what it meant? (I guess Matt will have to answer that one.)
> >
> >Matt:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >Pirsig's not talking about some
> >big,
> >ephemeral brain or think-tank that all of us pour and pull our thoughts
> >into
> >and out of. Pirsig's talking about books. He's talking about receiving an
> >education. He's talking about learning the language of the historical
> >culture we were born into. He's talking about learning the analogues upon
> >analogues upon analogues which make up the language of our time. That's
> >the
> >collective consciousness that has grown and changed since the time of the
> >creation of language. One can call it "collective" because it wasn't
> >created by a single source. It was created by many sources over a long
> >time. In fact, we all participate in creating it (or, rather, changing it)
> >simply by using it (which we have no other choice but to--well, at least to
> >remain "sane"). We can call it "collective" because our common educations
> >in the language of our time and place is why we all think in a way enough
> >like our fellows that we can understand each other.
>
> Paul: Exactly. Thanks for spelling this out, Matt. My shorter response to
> Ham at the time was:
>
> "Agreed, there is no collective mind. You are the one big on the existence
> of "mind," Ham, not I. There is, however, peer review. There is education,
> mathematics, language; without which there is no science."
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
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