From: Erin (macavity11@yahoo.com)
Date: Tue Jul 19 2005 - 20:03:27 BST
If you find value in attacking and disrpescting other people that is your choice. I don't find your analogy of boxing at all persuasive and choose not to use it. All this just further confirms by belief that the coercive force seen in the attacks on the list are the same type that you see in the attacks in religion. I do choose to stay because I find a lot of the posts very interesting. Chuck already gave me leave talking to philosophy to the men speech and I am not interested in that kind of advice so just save it. Despite all your boxing-tough-guy speech this is the wimpiest post I have seen in awhile.
A lot of heat and no light.
Erin
dmb says:
I suppose civility and sarcasm both have their places. I think real the
danger lurking behind either extreme is censorship. Too much heat will tend
to shut people up, but so will too much restraint. Take the exchange between
Mark and Erin, for example. As I see it, Mark knows how to make a case and
he knows how to criticize those who can't or won't make a case in return.
"Arrogant" is just what you call a guy that makes you feel stupid and I
think Erin just wants to stop feeling stupid.
ERIN: Mark doesn't make feel stupid at all...if anything the exact opposite.
DMB: She wants the criticism to
stop so she pretends its Mark's fault that Platt can't make a case, as if
this were some character flaw on Mark's part.
ERIN: I don't like disrespectful criticism.
DMB: That's ridiculous. Erin acts
as if the MOQ had nothing to say about politics or religion and all views
are equally valid within it. That view is simply incorrect. And if you think
otherwise, then make your case. I haven't seen one yet, but that's probably
because it CAN'T be made.
ERIN: Just more wrong assumptions. I just know some topics people can't seem to talk about in a civil manner and until they can don't want to participate in the discussions. Of course MoQ has stuff to say about them.
DMB: One can't avoid criticism in a philosophical forum such as this by simply
insulting the critic or making emotional appeals about hurt feelings. One
can make a case or not. You put up or shut up. You can actually address and
answer the criticism or simply whine about it. Which do you think is gonna
fly around here? Duh! That's all we can do. I think its that simple. I also
think its completely unreasonable to expect that heated debate and
passionate arguments can be avoided here. And what a bore it would be even
if we could.
ERIN: I can see you are more interested in heat than light...that doesn't suprise me.
DMB: Show me a guy who steps into a boxing ring and then complains when the otherguy takes a swing at him and I'll show you a guy who has no idea what he's
gotten himself into. If you can't take a punch, take up another sport. Don't
get in the ring. But for god's sake don't ruin the game for the rest of us.
ERIN: Yeah that is one approach but I don't see it as being of high quality.
DMB: And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone be asked to leave. I'm just saying
that it has to be accepted or rejected for what it is. This is an
intellectual forum and as such anything or anyone that interferes with our
ability to be open, honest and direct in our exchanges is our enemy.
Sometimes that is going to mean that people get upset. So what? We're all
adults here and metaphysics ain't for children. Can we agree on that?
Personally, I have loads of respect for my enemies. If I'm on your back
constantly, its a good bet that I take you quite seriously. (Isn't that so,
Matt?) If I only attacked those who seemed philosophically weak and
unpersuasive, then I would merely be a cowardly bully and not a boxer in a
real fight. Right?
Oddly perhaps, I think the calls for politeness and civility are usually a
call for self-censorship. I think its a way of asking your opponent to throw
the fight, take a dive or otherwise corrupt the game. Not always. I'm not
saying that nobody has ever crossed the line or that there's anything wrong
with being nice, but usually calls for civility just looks like emotionally
manipulative bullshit. Usually it comes from those who are far too concerned
with their own hurt feelings and who wants to put that concern over and
above the substance of the matter.
Oooops. Gotta go.
dmb
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