From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Jul 18 2005 - 02:55:39 BST
Dear Ian and Mati, Mark and Erin and all civil, movie-loving MOQers:
Ian said:
I also thought your paper, and the emotional connection you made with
Bob, on the Orphic mythology, was the most significant moment in the
conference.
dmb says:
Bob did a little research and sent word that Cocteau's film is now available
on DVD. Its a trilogy, actually. Naturally, all three films are already on
their way to my mailbox. (Netflix has it.) They should arrive tomorrow or
the next day, although I'm almost afraid to watch them. I'd like to be able
to walk out when its over, if you know what I mean. But I'll most certainly
watch it anyway. No, I'm gonna study it. As you might imagine, I don't give
a damn about any other movie right now.
In the "Moment of Civility" thread, Ian said to Mati:
It's a fine but important line between mis-directed sarcasm and
ironic, barbed wit.
There is also an element of familiarity breeding contempt between old
sparring partners knocking lumps out of each other, which may often be
lost on newcomers.
Many a true word spoken in jest, and in our striving to be
intellectual (something Paul also posted on) I hope we don't forget we
are biological, social, human animals too. No humanity without
humour. Sarcasm we can do without - except in frustrated extremis -
Platt for example :-) - only joking.
Politeness is anything but fun, but respect is essential.
dmb says:
I suppose civility and sarcasm both have their places. I think real the
danger lurking behind either extreme is censorship. Too much heat will tend
to shut people up, but so will too much restraint. Take the exchange between
Mark and Erin, for example. As I see it, Mark knows how to make a case and
he knows how to criticize those who can't or won't make a case in return.
"Arrogant" is just what you call a guy that makes you feel stupid and I
think Erin just wants to stop feeling stupid. She wants the criticism to
stop so she pretends its Mark's fault that Platt can't make a case, as if
this were some character flaw on Mark's part. That's ridiculous. Erin acts
as if the MOQ had nothing to say about politics or religion and all views
are equally valid within it. That view is simply incorrect. And if you think
otherwise, then make your case. I haven't seen one yet, but that's probably
because it CAN'T be made.
One can't avoid criticism in a philosophical forum such as this by simply
insulting the critic or making emotional appeals about hurt feelings. One
can make a case or not. You put up or shut up. You can actually address and
answer the criticism or simply whine about it. Which do you think is gonna
fly around here? Duh! That's all we can do. I think its that simple. I also
think its completely unreasonable to expect that heated debate and
passionate arguments can be avoided here. And what a bore it would be even
if we could.
Show me a guy who steps into a boxing ring and then complains when the other
guy takes a swing at him and I'll show you a guy who has no idea what he's
gotten himself into. If you can't take a punch, take up another sport. Don't
get in the ring. But for god's sake don't ruin the game for the rest of us.
And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone be asked to leave. I'm just saying
that it has to be accepted or rejected for what it is. This is an
intellectual forum and as such anything or anyone that interferes with our
ability to be open, honest and direct in our exchanges is our enemy.
Sometimes that is going to mean that people get upset. So what? We're all
adults here and metaphysics ain't for children. Can we agree on that?
Personally, I have loads of respect for my enemies. If I'm on your back
constantly, its a good bet that I take you quite seriously. (Isn't that so,
Matt?) If I only attacked those who seemed philosophically weak and
unpersuasive, then I would merely be a cowardly bully and not a boxer in a
real fight. Right?
Oddly perhaps, I think the calls for politeness and civility are usually a
call for self-censorship. I think its a way of asking your opponent to throw
the fight, take a dive or otherwise corrupt the game. Not always. I'm not
saying that nobody has ever crossed the line or that there's anything wrong
with being nice, but usually calls for civility just looks like emotionally
manipulative bullshit. Usually it comes from those who are far too concerned
with their own hurt feelings and who wants to put that concern over and
above the substance of the matter.
Oooops. Gotta go.
dmb
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