From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sat Jul 30 2005 - 11:16:41 BST
No problem Mark,
If I'd correctly quoted you as meaning to say "fully-realised human
beings" rather than simply "fully informed" as I'd read, then I'd not
have bothered to make the point I did.
Our differences seem to be only matters of approach and style.
If I make a point it's not necessarily "at" you.
My master plan ?
Softly, softly, catch'ee monkey.
Watch this, or some other, space ;-)
Ian
On 7/30/05, Mark Steven Heyman <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com> wrote:
> Hi Ian, and all,
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2005 at 0:32, ian glendinning wrote:
>
> My point however is the term "a moral society composed of
> fully-informed individuals" is another idealised but never to exist
> myth.
>
> msh 7-29-05:
> It's an ideal, a goal, something to aim for, like educating every
> person or making poverty history. Calling it a myth is simply
> attacking the ideal as unattainable and not worth striving for, and
> reeks of a kind of defeatism I find repugnant. I noticed the same
> kind of tunnel-vision cynicism in your comment about my so-called
> "conspiracy theory" of capital dominance. (Don't know if you got my
> response to that, as some posts seem to be greatly delayed these
> days.)
>
> Anyway, you don't seem like a cynic, and you're certainly not stupid,
> so I'm a little surprised at your willingness to denigrate ideals
> other than your own MOQ-based system of values. In the "population"
> thread you say:
>
> "Until a widely held common world view takes root in the population
> about the values of that future, I don't believe any amount or
> argument about which issue(s) we should address, how, and by what
> mechanisms, has any significant value - or much chance of any agreed
> decisions and implementable outcomes."
>
> But what's your plan for of getting your Moq-based world view to take
> root in a population that is forced to survive on a dollar a day?
> Hook everybody up to computers, and get them reading LILA? It's easy
> for us, in our privileged western societies, a tenth of the world's
> population using up a third of its resources, to spend a lot of time
> tapping at keyboards and reading philosophy. It should be clear that
> a lot of work within the existing system, work to eliminate the harsh
> brutalities under which most people live, will be necessary before
> your memetic revolution will be able to take hold.
>
> My society of fully-realized human beings may be just an ideal, but
> at least I have indicated some concrete steps to move us forward: the
> elimination or amelioration of the physical and psychological
> impediments to becoming fully-realized. It could be that fully-
> realized human beings may indeed adopt your MoQ-based world view; but
> it's a cinch that the impoverished majority of the world, struggling
> for simple survival, is gonna want bread first, then, maybe, roses.
>
> This is why, in my opinion, so-called "old logic and old politics"
> are essential for providing a foundation from which people who have
> known little other than the struggle for survival will be able to
> realize that something else is possible.
>
> Finally, your contention that fully-realized human beings may be
> badly informed, that is "filled with convenient and contagious
> myths," only shows me that you don't yet understand my concept of a
> fully-realized human being. For that, I am sorry.
>
>
> Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> --
> InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
> "There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a
> heart."
> - Lao Tzu
>
>
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Jul 30 2005 - 14:14:25 BST