From: jc (jcpryor@nccn.net)
Date: Sun Jul 31 2005 - 18:47:03 BST
At 4:19 PM -0400 7/29/05, Platt Holden wrote:
>Hi Arlo,
>
>> [Arlo]
>> Except the brujo was not one, single "solitary" soul. If he was, he would
>> have been nothing more than a set of high Quality biological patterns.
>
>He was the sole individual "responsible" for saving his tribe. Without
>him, the social layer from which he emerged would not have evolved and
>instead gone the way of the dinosaurs.
And without social affirmation, the innovative brujo's biological
patterns would one day fade into non-organic patterns with a complete
loss of any and all intellectual quality.
We all go back to dust eventually.
The quality individual needs social approval just as much as society
needs individuals responding to dynamic quality.
What troubles me most regarding the moq is the strict hierarchical
nature of it all. I'm not comfortable with strict hierarchies.
Real Life presents itself to me more as a circle than a pyramid. It
is in society that we find pyramidic hierarchies.
The intellectual/social split is really a slippery slope. It's easy
to comprehend the essence of the difference between man biological
and man social. But the only intellectual patterns I know all come
in various shades of culture - integrity in communication is taught
communally, reinforced communally and even when the individual
struggles against the direction of the community, s/he is in a tight
and mutually reinforcing social system. Like male and female, either
one is meaningless without the other, so how can there be any
hierarchy?
And yet there is. I recognize the great truth that it is more moral
for an idea to kill a society than it is for a society to kill an
idea. Puzzling.
>
> > [Platt]
>> Of course there's no denying your point about society being necessary to
>> support the individual and to react to individual DQ responses. But to
>> claim "me" is a delusion? Doesn't it say Arlo Bensinger on your birth
>> certificate? :-)
>>
>> [Arlo]
>> I didn't make this claim, I am only restating it. Einstein made the claim.
>> And I happen to agree with it. "Arlo Bensinger" is a semiotic marker. If
>> "I" were born onto a desert island, "Arlo Bensinger" would not exist.
>
>Are you saying that names create existence? That form of Idealism is a new
>one on me. If your desert island mother had named you Zog, would you
>exist? Or if she had died giving birth leaving you alone without a name,
>would you not exist, even if for a short time (hopefully to be adopted by
>apes or wolves)?
>
>Any good book on semantics will tell you that the word is not the thing,
>that symbols are independent of the things symbolized, the map is not the
>territory, the menu is not the food. Or, as the bard wrote, "That which we
>call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet." I presume that the
>four moral levels that comprise you would be as sweet even if your name
>was George. :-)
>
Hello Platt. I have a zentech koan for you, "what's more important,
the hardware or the software?"
Answer: it's all software stupid. (not you, that's just the answer)
And yes, I would claim that names do in fact create existence. And I
don't think this form of idealism is at all new. Because when a tree
crashes in the forest, there is in fact no sound. Sound is a
statement of relationship between ears that detect and translate
transmitted energy waves. If there is no ear, the event is something
different than "hearing" that occurs.
And I also read once, "In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD
was GOD." And I know lots of people who believe that very old book
so I don't think such a concept is new. "Out of these stones, God
could raise up children of Abraham." All it takes is a sprinkle of
organization and anything can be made into anything. Just name it,
manipulate the relationships programmatically. Voila.
the word is the thing, the symbols create the thing symbolized
through our filtered awareness.
However I do agree that the menu is not the food. It just controls
what will go into your mouth. And I agree the map is not the
territory. However, the territory is an excellent map. And a rose
by any name would certainly smell as sweet.
Thanks for luring me into the fray.
jc
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