From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sun Aug 21 2005 - 20:25:30 BST
Hi Ant
I understand these points, but that's really economic
liberalism not conservatism. I recognise what capitalism
has achieved in terms of prodcutive powers but think that
it looks increasingly like it is time to use intelligence and
democracy rather than buy/sell markets to organise our
societies. Capitalism NOW gives us very low dynamics when it
comes to changing the way companies work and who
runs them, vested interest and short termism are holding
back evolution.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ant McWatt" <antmcwatt@hotmail.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 4:29 PM
Subject: MD How do conservative values support DQ and the evolution of SQ?
On August 18th 2005, David M asked Ham Priday a question:
Ham said: left-wingers who want to replace individualism and national pride
with an
elitist social order
David M: that's silly abuse. OK wise guys give us your wisdom.......
How do conservative values support DQ & the evolution of SQ?????
Sam Norton replied August 18th:
Hi David,
DM: that's silly abuse. OK wise guys give us your wisdom.......
How do conservative values support DQ & the evolution of SQ?????
I think Ant gave a perfect example (from Pirsig):
"It does tend to reveal Dynamic Quality by blocking static intellectual
patterns but you need those patterns to keep from harm. People on peyote go
walking in front of oncoming cars and get killed because they think they are
one with God and no harm can come to them. The static patterns that were
blocked would have prevented that. In the American Indian ritual a guard
who does not take peyote is posted outside the teepee to prevent anyone from
wandering off by himself. They know what can happen."
If you don't have the static patterns, you have degeneration and death. So
you need SQ for the DQ, just as you need DQ for the SQ to evolve.
So far as I understand it, 'conservatism' is pointing out the value of the
SQ.
Ant McWatt comments:
It's good to see this quote being used so quickly. However, when David M's
question is read in context, it is apparent that he is referring to
political conservatives not static quality patterns in general.
For the record, the MOQ's political position is an attempt to take both the
better strands of the left and the right i.e. combine the left's social
compassion & intellectual guidance with the right's (supposed) promotion of
genuine free economic markets. It is a matter of using the latter as far as
possible in developing social values and only curbing them when they start
undermining intellectual and artistic values. (The latter point is what
Platt keeps overlooking when talking about politics so knocking him out of
the MOQ and back into SOM's sweatshops, polluted lakes and third rate
schools together with Mr Priday).*
So to answer David M's question:
"How do conservative values support DQ & the evolution of SQ?????"
Within intellectually imposed limits to ensure that they don't undermine
intellectual and artistic values, conservative values support DQ on a social
level by ensuring that economies are as vibrant as possible. A Dynamic
economy in turn helps support intellectual and artistic development via well
financed universities etc. so, when used wisely, conservative values
promote the evolution of both social and intellectual SQ. It's only when
they are no intellectually imposed limits that free markets can retard the
evolutionary process - the trick is to know how far these limitations should
go.
In LILA, Pirsig argues that the Eastern bloc "communists" completely threw
the (free market) baby out with the bath water while - on the other extreme
- the capitalists didn't understand why the child they nurtured was so
valuable. The MOQ recognises the value of the child and nurtures it but
doesn't let it run the household.
Best wishes,
Anthony.
* - Platt and Ham are the two old guys in the corner with the big Dunce's
hats on when politics is discussed around here. You're not going to find
much wisdom there as regards this particular subject. However, they do
often escape the corner when other subjects (such as art and religion) are
discussed.
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