From: Laycock, Jos (OSPT) (Jos.Laycock@OFFSOL.GSI.GOV.UK)
Date: Fri Sep 02 2005 - 12:44:57 BST
And now I come to think of it..
It makes much more sense to say that the cultural level is built on
consciousness rather than to say it is built on biology. Pirsig was at some
pains (Lila's child annotations) to exclude non human groups from his
cultural level, but till now I couldn't see any compelling reason to do so.
By accepting that consciousness is a purely biological phenomena that arises
as a product of complexity, we can more readily distinguish between; groups
of non conscious simple biological organisms, and the cultures of higher
conscious ones.
Well that wraps it up for me, consciousness is complex static biology, and
the MOQ should view it as such.
The "we" that David refers to is also however of the cultural and
intellectual levels and thus able to subordinate biological consciousness
and bend it to our will.
when he says:
"Is it a kind of interaction or interference between these impulses," - I
say yes!
"a sort of accidental side effect?" - Yes!
Then are we actually able to control our thoughts," - Yes!
"or are we mere observers," - Yes! (but not so mere!)
"or rather are "we" nothing at all?" - Yes! (very Zen)
"Is there a "critical mass", a density of nervous
cells that needs to be reached before thoughts can occur?" -Yes!
A many truths moment if ever there was one.
Jos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Laycock, Jos (OSPT)
Sent: 02 September 2005 10:32
To: 'moq_discuss@moq.org'
Subject: RE: MD Consciousness/MOQ, definition of
Hi Scott,
I think the "materialist error" assertion is wrong.
Consciousness in my view is simply a very moral and highly evolved part of
the biological level and as such definitely IS derived from neuronal(/glial
cell) complexity.
In Lila I think that Pirsig is quite explicit in saying that the patterns of
each level are written upon the patterns of the next lower level and that
the evolutionary state of the lower level determines whether or not the
higher level can come into existence. DQ causes (values) evolution within
each level because the most moral static forms of that level are those that
favour the genesis of the next.
The reason that the MOQ says little about consciousness (IMO) is because it
is a thing that occurs entirely within one level (biological) and thus is
not involved in any moral conflict.
I find your assertion "wrong" because it answers a wrong question,
attempting to give a philosophical value answer in response to observations
of a scientifically explicable* biological phenomenon.
(*we just haven't worked it out yet)
Jos
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David Zentgraf
Sent: 02 September 2005 01:32
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness/MOQ, definition of
Hi Scott, all,
good to see I'm not the only one missing this point. So at least it
seems I did understand the MOQ correctly so far.
But as far as I can see, without being able to provide an answer to
these questions the MOQ is not (yet) the ultimate answer to
everything and merely represents another, though perfectly valid,
subset of a bigger picture. Or is that all it set out to do in the
first place?
> "In other words, consciousness did not arise at some point in time,
> and the idea that consciousness is a consequence of the nervous system
> reaching some level of complexity is just a materialist error."
Interesting, would you mind going into details about that for me? The
"complexity theory" at least provides some handle on the issue for
me. Any alternative suggestions?
Chrs,
Dav
On 2005/09/02, at 6:30, Scott Roberts wrote:
> Dav,
>
> This has long been one of my complaints about the MOQ. The
> questions of
> consciousness and how thoughts arise are simply not addressed. It
> could be
> argued that in LILA, Pirsig had other fish to fry, in particular
> giving an
> account of morality, and it makes sense that in the space of that
> book there
> would be metaphysical issues he would have to leave out. But as far
> as I can
> see there is little way to use what is in the MOQ to address the
> questions
> you raise.
>
> My own view (which is not generally accepted here) is that to speak
> of value
> is to speak of consciousness (awareness of value). Since, according
> to the
> MOQ, there is value at all levels, so must there be consciousness
> at all
> levels. In other words, consciousness did not arise at some point
> in time,
> and the idea that consciousness is a consequence of the nervous system
> reaching some level of complexity is just a materialist error.
>
> - Scott
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