From: Laycock, Jos (OSPT) (Jos.Laycock@OFFSOL.GSI.GOV.UK)
Date: Mon Sep 05 2005 - 13:42:04 BST
Hi Scott,
My opinions are embedded......
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Scott Roberts
Sent: 02 September 2005 19:06
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness/MOQ, definition of
Dav, Ian, Jos,
You all have been discussing how one might find out the workings of
consciousness under the assumption (Ian partially excepted) that it is an
outgrowth of biology when biological systems reach a certain level of
complexity. Here is why I think this pursuit is foolishness.
First, assume that all relevant factors are strictly spatio-temporal. (If
one denies this assumption, for example, by bringing in quantum
non-locality, then all bets are off, since the question is whether or not
consciousness arose in time.)
Err..
Consciousness happens in a moment of indefinable length, it occupies no
specific period of time. The relevant factors that bring it about are fairly
spatio temporal but how fast do electrical impulses travel? There may very
well be a great deal of relativistic effects possible that completely detach
biological SPOVs from static spatio-temporality, (??not qualified??). Even
if there aren't it doesn't preclude one from arising from the other.
The contents of perception are macroscopic, yet the spatio-temporal
processes consist of an immense activity of microscopic events.
Hmmm...
Each such event is separated from all others by space and/or time.
Seems likely...
All communication
from one event to another is just another microscopic event.
Yes.
Given the
assumption, there can be awareness of nothing bigger than these microscopic
events (and actually not even that, since awareness requires a background
against which the foreground -- the event -- is set off, hence it contains
more information than can be found in an event).
Isn't this a contradiction?
The awareness, is of the "macroscopic contents of perception", it is only of
big stuff, you cant see microbiology at work, you cant see atoms. The
perceived "event" includes background, foreground, subject and object, it is
macroscopic. And what other event is there?
Hence, the assumption of
strict spatio-temporality must be wrong. Appeals to complexity theory,
recursive loops, etc. make no difference, as long as the strict
spatio-temporality assumption is made. Science can only study the biological
activity that accompany perception, somewhat like studying what a television
does. It cannot explain perception itself, what actually gets shown on
television.
You can either say that consciousness is a biological process that you don't
understand, or you can say it is a metaphysical process that you don't
understand. Studying the inorganic make up of dead dissected nerves reveals
nothing about life, life is the dynamic flow of information through
membranes. Biology is the picture on the TV screen, not the wires.
Consciousness is also in the picture on the TV screen.
Another argument: we know that the contents of our sense perceptions (trees
and such) are built out of raw (or at least rawer) sensations (color
swatches, tones, etc.), which in turn are assumed to be built out zillions
of quantum level events (e.g., electrons absorbing photons). In other words,
what we see, hear, etc., are products of perception -- they don't exist as
macroscopic objects except in the act of perception.
Absolutely. I feel this undermines your earlier point!
Yet in trying to
explain the processes of perception biologically, we are using those
products (e.g., glial cells) as existing prior to perception to explain
perception.
Quality exists before perception. And so do biological static patterns of
quality, they give rise to perception, perception calls them glial cells.
There is no contradiction here.
Combining the two arguments, there is an alternate hypothesis, that space
and time are created in the acts of perception.
No, I think space and time are NAMED in the act of perception.
This does not entail that
"to be is to be perceived", just that non-perceived reality is not
spatio-temporal, that perception converts it into spatio-temporal form.
Science (with the partial exception of quantum mechanics) is the study of
that consciousness-produced spatio-temporal form, the products of
perception, and not of a reality in which or by which perception can be
explained.
Space and time are inorganic static patterns of values that we don't
understand, intellect and culture have used perception to come up with vague
analogy labels. All science should aim to improve the analogies, currently
Quantum physics is doing the best job of picking holes.
- Scott
I think basically I agree with you in this last section, but I don't see any
of these conclusions to be arguments that support your assertion that the
pursuit of consciousness within the biological level of SPOV is foolishness.
Jos
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