From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Mar 02 2003 - 17:25:36 GMT
Rick and y'all:
DMB said:
The linguistic shift to inorganic patterns of value, then, is meant to
overcome the metaphysical assumptions about the data, while retaining the
data itself.
RICK replied:
I agree with this comment on its own. But when it's combined with your
assertion that, "...Pirsig's attack is upon a METAPHYSICS of substance, not
substance itself...", you seem to be arguing that Pirsig is saying the
'data' really is of 'substance itself'; An argument which at best fails to
realize the full-promise of Pirsig's redescription of reality in terms of
value, and at worst raises the specter of 'matter' (and thus, all things
SOM). But I would submit to you that this identification of "data" with
"substance itself" is precisely what Pirsig was trying to avoid by
redescribing "substance" as an "inorganic pattern of values" because in a
Metaphysics of Quality, 'empirical data' flows directly from the
pre-intellectual, cutting-edge of reality... Dynamic Quality.
DMB says:
Excellent post. Bravo. I stand corrected. And I think you're quite right. I
should have said, "Pirsig's attack is upon a METAPHYSICS of substance, but
not the data, properties or values from which we deduce substance" or
something like that. Its not easy to be precise about this, which is why am
so impressed with your efforts on this matter.
I should add that the shift from substance to inorganic patterns of value
also manages to save the data and the world without making any kind of
declarations about what is really is. He seems to be saying is that all we
have are the data and that is quite enough. We don't have some deduced thing
in which qualities appear, we just have the qualites or values themselves. I
think this saves him from those dreaded foundations, from solipsism, from
nihilism, and as you point out, allows "the integration of physical science
with other areas of experience". In other words, this shift really has some
important pay offs later down the line when things get more complicated.
From the opening of chapter 8....
"Most empiricists deny the validity of any knowledge gained through
imagination, authority, tradition, or purely theoretical reasoning. They
regard fields such as art, morality, religion and metaphysics as
unverifiable. The MOQ varies from this by saying that the values of art and
morality and even religious mysticism are verifiable, and that in the past
they have been excluded for metaphysical reasons, not empirical reasons."
Thanks tons,
DMB
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