From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed Sep 07 2005 - 14:40:35 BST
Hi Mark,
I want to clarify my descriptions slightly here, but
in doing so, I think that unfortunately I find myself
in disagreement with some of your points below.
Mark:
Hi Jos, No problem there.
Jos:
The 4 tiers that are laid out below may vary in width
I think, between your view and mine.
Mark:
The width of the tiers i gave is not mine but that of
the MOQ. My view is the MOQ view.
Jos:
As alluded to in my discussions with David, I think
that tier 1 is in fact very wide and actually accounts
for most of our perception, in that it includes a
great many comparisons between things, people,
emotional states, spaces and times, just that these
comparisons are not made by the use of language.
Mark:
Tier 1 are Organic patterns.
Jos:
I suppose you could call them instinctive learnt
patterns of consciousness (thanks Ian). So there very
much IS a you/me distinction even below the cultural
level, dominant alpha males are celebrities amongst
cattle but do they have culture?
Mark:
There does not appear to be a discrepancy between your
view and that of the MOQ tier 1.
Culture is a tricky term and includes Social and
Intellectual patterns. We must be careful to remember
the distinction between social and intellectual
patterns - a distinction you appreciate.
Do Cattle have culture?
Culture is both social and intellectual patterns.
Do Cattle have social and intellectual patterns?
Cattle have social patterns but no intellectual
patterns.
Jos:
I think celebrity, like awareness exists across each
of the static levels and doesn't, as a concept, hurl a
SOL quite as far through the proverbial window as you
describe.
Mark:
SOL is certainly a conceptualisation. No doubt about
that; it is a concept generated by the intellect and
NOT the intellect itself.
Again, you appear to be in agreement with the MOQ.
Jos:
I think the SOL may very well accurately describe the
types of awareness that exist at the intellectual
level.
Mark:
You say, "at the intellectual level" and not THE
intellectual level. But the SOL says the intellect IS
the SOL.
The MOQ says SOL is one of an infinite number ways of
conceptualising experience. Bodvar says it is the only
one. Big difference there Jos?
Jos:
But I pose the following questions:
Is there more to any level than the static patterns of
values that define the awareness that can exist there?
Mark:
Not according to the MOQ.
A level is a static description in terms of patterns
of values.
Jos:
and if so then:
What spovs are there of the intellectual level, that
are extra to intellectual awareness?
Jos
Mark:
None.
But, the whole repertoire of patterns is evolving
under our own Dynamic creative involvement. You may,
therefore, see patterns no one else can see until you
propagate them. Quite a thought?
Also - the moment of creation is Dynamic, and that
experience is immediate and unpatterened, therefore,
it cannot be included in any static description.
Mark
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