From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Sep 09 2005 - 08:48:11 BST
Ham said of Platt,
"Behind that facade of polite naiveté is an urge to shoot ..."
Well put.
Ian
On 9/9/05, hampday@earthlink.net <hampday@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Gav --
>
> You've posted a couple of notes referring to my discussion with Platt that
> were not specifically addressed me. So I'm not sure if you're seeking my
> response or simply stating the MoQ position.
>
> In your previous post you said:
>
>
> > i dont see how this is different to the MOQ.
> > see below for comments
> >
> > > The "discrete particulars" of existential otherness,
> > > like the finite
> > > "no-things" that experience them, are transitory
> > > phenomena that have meaning
> > > only in terms of relative or conditional value. As
> > > no-things, we can't be
> > > the source of that value; we can only reflect upon
> > > it and respond to it as
> > > free agents.
> >
> > man is the measure of all things
>
> I was pleased to learn that my philosophy of Essence had something in common
> with Pirsig's MoQ, and Platt liked the aphorism "Man is the measure of all
> things".
>
> Since then your opinion seems to have changed:
>
> > i disagree. if consciousness is universal a la
> > buddhism (you thing buddhism is wrong too?) then
> > experience is universal.
>
> Please understand that I am outlining my own philosophy here, making no
> attempt to fit it to the MoQ, Buddhism, or any other philosophy. Most of
> the MDers have been around this issue with me before and don't want to
> discuss it any more. My personal opinion is that Pirsig needed to make his
> Quality concept fill the gap left when he rejected theism; that is, he
> needed a primary source to replace God as the teleological force that moves
> the cosmos toward "betterness". His solution was to stretch Quality far
> beyond its common definition, positing it as "the primary empirical reality
> of the world" and infusing it with a universal consciousness, yet declining
> to call it the primary source. I'm on record as stating that I consider
> this a mistake.
>
> I outlined my concept of Value to Platt as follows:
>
> > My theory is that Value is an experiential manifestation of
> > the Essence which is its source. In the life-experience each
> > of us identifies with a unique configuration of values that
> > relate to these particulars.
>
> You state:
> > each of us *is* a unique configuration of values
>
> Essentially, that is correct. Which is why I've said that Value is the
> essence of man's reality.
>
> > everything is value: value returns to Value
>
> That's a bit simplistic. Essence has value only to what is not Essence;
> i.e., the self-conscious individual. (If you read my thesis, you'll observe
> that I've followed in the tradition of Eckhart and Sartre in defining the
> self as a "negate".) This, incidentally, is what troubled Platt.
>
> I also said:
>
> > I think this valuistic philosophy goes farther than
> > the MoQ in satisfying the individual's need for a
> > non-theological belief system. There are several
> > reasons why I believe this to be a "sensible" thesis:
>
> You ask:
> > can you explain how it goes farther?
>
> I'll return the question. Can you explain how Pirsig's philosophy answers
> any of the criteria that I cited for Essentialism?
>
> > 1) It is supported in various ways by visionaries
> > such as Eckhart, Plotinus, and Nicholas of Cusa;
> > by philosophers like Schopenhauer, Heidegger,
> > Hegel, William James, and Allen Watts;
> > and by more recent thinkers, including J.A. Wheeler,
> > Donald Hoffman, and Phillip Johnson.
> >
> > 2) It offers a plausible ontology to account for the
> > the creation of a differentiated evolutionary world
> > by an absolute immutable source.
> >
> > 3) It introduces an anthropocentric perspective of
> > reality based on the autonomy of man as the free
> > agent and choicemaker in a deterministic universe.
> >
> > 4) It proves that Essence cannot be indigenous to
> > individuality and relational beingness, and it vindicates
> > the inaccessibility of Absolute Truth as consistent
> > with the principle of Individual Freedom.
> >
> > 5) It accommodates the spirituality of religion but
> > not the theological dogma, positing Value as the
> > essence of man and the inextricable link to his
> > creator.
>
> You insist, although admitting that it's questionable:
> > value is the creator.
> > this is actually a big Q i reckon, is it a problem to
> > conflate a creator with the big Q?
>
> Yes, I think it is. I think it is illogical for anyone to assume that a
> judgmental reaction to something experienced (by a sensible subject) can be
> the creator of the universe.
>
> > okay on one hand yes, cos you are limiting the
> > unlimited, differentiating the undifferentiated,
> > making the dynamic static.
> > but if consciousness is the mode of existence of
> > quality then perhaps it is helpful to think of one big
> > unified consciousness, of which we are all a 'reduced'
> > (or regulated) version of. is this a step towards a
> > creator?hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>
> There is no "one big Consciousness". We've gone around this before, too.
> The very design of existence is to individuate (isolate) the "evaluator" as
> an autonomous agent. Man is as immutably individuated as Essence is
> immutably absolute.
>
> May I suggest that you read my thesis www.essentialism.net, and then come
> back to me with your questions or criticisms?
>
> Nice meeting you, Gav
> Ham
>
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Sep 09 2005 - 08:58:51 BST