From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Sep 09 2005 - 09:43:20 BST
Hmmm Gav,
I get where you're coming from "mate", but you are working with a
widest posssible metaphor for consciousness. (Remember our other
conversation about metaphors - explanatory quality matters 'n all
that.)
You are using "consciousness" almost synonymous with "dynamic quality"
or "God" even. If we make every term we use mean everything,
conversations get - well - spaced out. High on thoughts, low on
semantics.
This is really why this thread is about some "definitions" of (many
different metaphors for, levels of) consciousness, rather than debates
about life, the universe and everything based on your (or my) one
definition of consciousness. It's very un-Zen, but IMHO we need some
ontology and names for the parts before we can have a debate.
Ian
On 9/9/05, gav <gav_gc@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> hey all,
> see below for interspersed comments
>
> ham wrote:
>
> > First of all, I'm sorry to see that you've fallen
> > for the notion that atoms
> > and molecules "experience" each other. (I had hoped
> > to be getting to you
> > before your indoctrination by the MoQ.) This is
> > sheer nonsense, and it will
> > be a major obstacle to achieving a workable
> > definition of Consciousness.
>
> i disagree. if consciousness is universal a la
> buddhism (you thing buddhism is wrong too?) then
> experience is universal.
>
> you think rocks are inanimate lumps?
>
> rocks store info. they are antennae. hence menhirs,
> stonyhenge and all the lore of crytsals and gems.
>
> how can u say that molecules don't experience other
> molecules? where is your evidence?
>
> *you* are molecules experiencing other molecules.
>
> experience is fundamental to MOQ. the MOQ is an
> experiential metaphysics. every*thing* is abstracted
> from experience.
>
> >
> > Only creatures possess consciousness,
>
> nope. consciousness possesses creatures.
>
> >and only
> > humans possess the
> > self-consciousness necessary to "intellectualize"
> > reality and derive value
> > from the experience.
>
> no. value is primary, ontologically prior to the
> intellectualization of it. this is one of the basic
> *essential* premises of the MOQ.
>
> > Intellection is a subjective
> > process whereby sense
> > impressions are synthesized by the central nervous
> > system into a systemized
> > construct or cognizant perspective of physical
> > reality.
>
> no. i dont have to consciously think reality into
> being. haven't you noticed that?
>
> > Programmed into
> > this perspective is a template (pattern or format)
> > that includes the
> > dimensions of time and space
>
> hi immanuel
>
> and that makes
> > empirical knowledge universal,
> > while the values realized by cognizant awareness
> > remain proprietary to the
> > individual subject.
>
> empirical knowledge universal eh? although obviously
> culturally relative. oops then its not universal is
> it? some holes here mate.
>
> values arent realized. they realize.
>
>
> > You seem to agree with my value concept:
> >
> > > They're partly proprietary. Only the subjective
> > part of the
> > > experience that we add as an individual.
> > > A woman may be universally regarded as a woman,
> > but
> > > only by some as a beautiful woman.
>
> bzzzzz helen of troy. she was HOT!, according to my
> 'miss troy 1500 bc' video.
>
> whoa!!!! there aint nothing subjective about seeing a
> beautiful woman my friend.
> there ain't no *evaluation* going on - just value,
> immediate and sweet.
>
> > > Our experience builds on experiences on a lower
> > level.
> >
> > So the question as to whether "objects exist before
> > experience" can be
> > reduced to: "Do time and space exist before
> > experience?". The answer, IMO,
> > is that they occur simultaneously WITH the
> > experience, because it's
> > experience that "creates" them. And, because all
> > experience is subjective,
>
> huh. i think you are missing some key points mate.
> experience is neither subjective nor objective it
> PRECEDES both abstract categories, necessarily, i
> might add (ooh i just did).
>
> <snip>
> >
> > The question I still have is: Why is this
> > intellectualized pattern of
> > reality a universal experience?
>
> cos we are in the same culture matey, with the same
> biology and physics goin on. an intellectualized
> pattern represents and relates all the rest of the
> patterns which are pretty similar for all of us here.
>
> and remember we dont consciously create reality.
> intellect is for representing and relating other
> static patterns. i am pretty sure ducks, mice, amoeba
> and virii still knock about in 'reality' even though
> they dont have intellect.
>
> What is the
> > significance of this particular
> > cosmic "template"
>
> there is no template.
>
> with its contingency of physical
> > and mathematical laws and
> > principles.
>
> we made them up.
>
> > In other words, could (or would) this
> > particular design have
> > been different if experienced by some non-human
> > intellect?
>
> there is no objective world out there
> man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> we dont experience with the intellect...that is
> totally obvious. intellect reflects upon experience.
>
> reality can be different for different people. its
> consensual nature relies upon patterns in common
> (intellectual, social, biological, inorganic). when
> some of these patterns are not in common reality
> changes.
>
>
> >
> > If you can provide a plausible answer to this
> > question, you will earn my
> > eternal gratitude and intellectual respect.
>
> dont mention it ;-)
>
> >
> > Essentially yours,
> > Ham
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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