From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sat Sep 10 2005 - 12:14:59 BST
Hi Scott
we agree, don't we, that there are
> intellectual patterns, and there are natural patterns? If so, then what I
> am
> pointing out is that *if* we say that natural patterns are static patterns
> of value, that value is inherent in the natural pattern (that is, not
> added
> to it by human observation), then 'static pattern of value' is just
> another
> way of saying 'essence' or 'concept'.
DM: I would say here that if a tree falls in the forest that is
one pattern with a certain complex of values, if a human being
is there as well then there is a different pattern and therefore
a different complex of values. Also concept does not imply a
value in SOM, agreeed we can bring it into MOQ and try to
give it that implication.
>
> Ham said:
> In my philosophy, Essence is not patterned but undifferentiated and
> absolute
> in itself.
>
> Scott interrupts:
> Which makes no sense at all to me.
Nor me. DM
>
> Ham continued:
> The fact that we humans perceive reality as particularized
> objects and events is due to our fragmented space/time sensibility and the
> intellectualized imaging by which we make it part of our "universal
> knowledge".
>
> Scott interrupts:
> I agree that human perception creates spacetime, but unless there are
> patterns separate from our observation that lend themselves to being put
> into spatio-temporal form, we would not be aware of them, so there is some
> differentiation (pattern) even when no one is looking. And I would not
> disallow the possibility that horse perception could also be more or less
> spatio-temporal. Different from ours, no doubt.
Yes DM
> Scott:
I might also mention that I am also
> following Barfield in saying that concepts are common to both human
> intellect and nature, and that our knowledge of nature is good when we
> participate in the concepts that nature is manifesting -- though we are
> rank
> beginners in that endeavor at present, at a level of learning the
> alphabet,
> while the goal is being able to read.
DM: OK if you make it clear, as Pirsig does about value, that concepts
do not just originate with human beings, but that is hard to make clear
given normal use of the word.
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