From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sat Sep 10 2005 - 13:15:26 BST
Hi Platt,
Responses inserted ...
On 9/9/05, Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ian (Paul and Bo mentioned)
>
> > Why Platt ?
> >
> > Because as Ham put it "Behind that facade of polite naiveté is an urge to
> > shoot." You always insist on missing the point.
>
> What point?
[IG] The one I'm explainig here, dummy ...
>
> > I'm not saying I (or ZMM or Lila) "looks unfavourably" on classical
> > logical rationale - whate we're saying is it lacks the more immediate,
> > subjective, mystical aspects of "art".
>
> I said you "seem to suggest" in order to qualify my statement that I
> wasn't sure exactly what you were suggesting.
>
> In the above sentence you shift from "I" to "we." Who are the others?
[IG] As I said explicity in the sentence you are reading - me and the
words of ZMM and Lila.
>
> What I'm saying is that a good, logical, reasonable argument presented
> with clarity and gumption often embodies the mystical aspects of "art."
> When I read Paul's and Bo's letters, for example, I sometimes find the way
> they present their case as "beautiful."
[G] And I say - What GOF (Good Old Fashioned) Classical Logic
generally lacks is the more subjective arts, even any given logical
argument maybe be crafted as a work of art.
>
> > SEPARATE SUBJECT (Aside here)
> >
> > That particular Pirsig quote I know oh so very well. It has been a
> > bone of contention with many readers. My take is that if Pirsig really
> > meant your implied "classical reason only" for the final word "reason", he
> > sadly made a mistake. Two more positive spins
> >
> > (1), I believe, like me, he was emphasising the missing component,
> > simply not mentioning the existing "non-classical- reason" component
> > already taken for granted. He may have been making the classical
> > logical error of assuming it would be bad news to advertise overtly
> > that he was arguing for the MoQ on the basis of the MoQ. As Bo says
> > this was an amazing opportunity he let slip, and compounded with
> > subsequent clarifications. (Recursion is no bad thing, as you may have
> > noticed me say ... which is what that work of art GEB is ALL about BTW.)
> >
> > Or (2) he had already updated his own thinking and was using the word
> > reason to mean the "new reason" that incoporates the missing elements - if
> > he had, he failed to make this abundantly clear to enough readers. (It's
> > this latter trail I'm on.)
>
> If you believe Pirsig really doesn't mean what he says, or if he does,
> he's mistaken, what can I say? I happen to believe the man, and more often
> than not, think he's right. Furthermore, his way of presenting his
> thoughts are both rational and artful.
[IG] As Ham says your "polite naivite" stinks. You, and I and everyone
else here has their own readings of Pirsigs literal words, as you well
know. You simply quote his words as if your own interpretation were
the self evident truth. Some of us have the honesty to explain which
interpretations we read into them and which we agree with or not. The
debate is to home in on quality common interpretations, I hope.
Obviously I believe he's more right than wrong otherwise I wouldn't be
wasting my time here would I. But his bare words are not literally
true by some divine definition.
[IG] As I said, I know you know I know you are deliberately
infuriating. You couldn't possibly be that dumb.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
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