From: Case (Case@iSpots.com)
Date: Sun Sep 11 2005 - 04:38:01 BST
[Case wrote]
>> When you say that there is some goal, direction or purpose to nature
>> you are in fact saying that some future state is influencing action in
>> the
>> present.
[Ham repied]
> No, I'm not. That is your interpretation. How can a future event
> influence
> a past event?
[Case responds]
Exactly, it can't.
[Ham wrote]
> If you absent the time element, you'll see that it's the "design" that
> determines the pattern. This design applies to what is happening in the
> present. The design doesn't change -- it's permanent through all of what
> the intellect experiences as time. So the natural progression that we see
> in time is a process that is "pulled" to its completion not by any event
> in
> the future but by some supenatural force or power that is constant, in
> accordance with the design.
[Case reponds]
Absent the time element? What does that mean? A constant supernatural force,
forced by design constraints? What in the heck are you talking about?
[Case wrote]
> Paley's arguement has been trounced so thouroughly and
>> so often, the only place I ever hear reference to it any more
>> is on Christian radio stations. I am bit disappointed to see
>> it raised here.
[Ham responded]
> The fact that it has been denounced by others should not control your
> intellectual discernment. I've read the rebuttals, but I still think the
> analogy holds. For example, the one you raise:
[Case asks]
So you are suggesting that I run around looking for discredited ideas to
adopt?
[Ham wrote]
>> If you find a watch in the field you might postulate a
>> watchmaker but in doing so you would also be postulating
>> his parents and a society that could support metalurgy and
>> mathamatics.
>
> You're only gilding the lily to prove my point. If the designer had other
> assets, so much the better! But this doesn't refute the initial inference
> that the watch was designed for a specific purpose.
[Case replies]
So at first all I needed to do was explain the watch. Then we had to explain
the watch and the Watchmaker. Now you have him inviting his relatives to
dinner. Stop while we can at least count the number of impossible things we
have to explain in this analogy.
[Case wrote]
>> To say the the natural world contains evidence of the
>> supernatural is a bit absurd. If there were evidence,
>> it would be natural. If there were none, it would be
>> fantasy.
[Ham wrote]
> The evidence is what you see -- in nature. If your intellectual faculties
> are so undeveloped that they don't see purpose in the seedling, and a
> design
> in the mature tree that it becomes, then you shouldn't be talking to me.
> Perhaps it would be more beneficial for you to go out and commune with
> nature instead.
[Case replies]
If the seed should fall upon rocky soil, is it's purpose not to just lay
there?
[Case wrote]
>> We exist at a point in spacetime where we receive a
>> constant stream of energy disipating from our sun.
>> Life is, in many respects, the production solar
>> radition being reflected off our planet's surface and
>> bouncing around a bit before moving on.
>> Being mystified that life begins in a simple form then
>> become more complicated is a bit like needing a
>> supernatural explaination for how a spark can
>> become a flame.
[Ham replied]
> I majored in Biology and studied botany, yet I remain mystified and
> enthralled by a constantly unfolding world that Science, with all its laws
> and principles, cannot begin to explain.
[Case reponds]
Perhaps you should have studied more and speculated less. The world is
mysterious enough without the supernatural. Just how weird do things have to
be to satisfy you?
[Case wrote]
>> You can say that life has a direction or
>> treads in its development but to say there is
>> some final purpose or goal for
>> it is, as I said, before: wishful thinking.
[Ham responded]
> While I am "wishfully" thinking, one of my wishes is that you and a few
> others here would come to recognize the full value of this singular life
> experience. After all, this forum is about the value of Quality, is it
> not?
> Have you ever thought about the value of Freedom? The value of Beauty?
> The
> value of Awareness? Did all this come about by accident or coincidence?
> Where is the Value (or Quality) in that?
>
> But, while all this offers you personal evidence of a Master Designer, you
> choose to chalk it up to "wishful thinking".
>
> I'm afraid you're a "sad" Case.
[Case responds]
These were not reasoned arguments you presented here, Ham. This was
whineing. You can do better.
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Sep 11 2005 - 05:08:28 BST