From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun Sep 11 2005 - 23:21:04 BST
Hi Mark, (+hopefully Bo)
Mark 11-9-05:
Hi Jos, first off i want to say that I'm using Yahoo
and I'm not used to the way it goes about its
business. It has come as a bit of a surprise to find
that old e-mails can drift in way after far newer ones
have arrived. This plays merry hell with sequencing
but it's not my fault! I certainly don't like it.
Jos:
You repeat again that a SOL (as opposed to the
generally accepted moq intellectual level) predicts
that you/me distinction is only possible
by the use of intellect, and thus SOL cannot be
correct as this distinction is clearly apparent at all
other static levels. (please confirm/clarify)
Mark:
As far as i understand Bodvar's position, SOM is
Quality's intellect. Previous to SOL, Bodvar called
his metaphysics SOLAQI which stands for, Subject
Object Logic As Quality's Intellect. In evolutionary
time, pre-SOLAQI people heard voices in their heads
which they named Gods. I've no idea if this means
people did not understand a difference between
themselves and others? I get the impression Bodvar
places a high premium upon this being so for some
reason, but you will have to ask Bodvar.
Jos:
What I am missing, is why you say that an MOQ that
incorporates SOL
cannot
distinguish between you and me, below intellect.
Bodvar agreed with me that in his view, non linguistic
comparison (or
biological awareness) is completely compatible with
SOL.
i.e., he agrees that you/me distinction happens
independently of
intellect,
and thus the intellectual level still does not need
necessarily include
anything aside from linguistic subject object
distinctions. (Bo, you
now
please confirm, if you are listening)
Mark:
The suggestion that Humans had no biological or Social
differential awareness pre-SOLAQI is totally absurd,
so i should be very surprised if Bodvar claimed
otherwise.
The MOQ, rather like Buddhist thought, indicates the
illusory nature of all you/me distinctions precisely
because the Intellect is free from Social and
Biological differentiations. The only differentiations
the Intellect recognises are those of its own
aesthetic choosing, and they are many and manifold in
nature.
Buddha:
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
Jos:
My second difficulty is that my questions at the end,
were intended to push you into a corner, somehow you
escaped (which I was frustrated by) so I will be more
honest in my approach;
Mark:
I had no idea this was your strategy Jos. For my part,
i should like to tell you i wish to be completely open
and up for debate. I'm not playing games; I'm not
trying to have fun. I want to understand.
Jos:
2 options, either:
1)If a static level includes nothing extra to the
types of awareness that resides there (which I think
you agreed with) and SOL is an accurate
description of the types of awareness that exist at
the intellectual level (which you didn't disagree
with), then the intellectual level contains
nothing extra to the SOL?????
(I think a Venn diagram would show this best, but do
you see that as far as this argument goes I have no
really strong motive to reject Bo's theories.)
Mark:
Your conclusions are correct. Bodvar insists upon the
premises you present to me, but i disagree with
Bodvar's premises. So, i disagree with your
conclusion.
Jos:
or
2)If you had answered that static levels were not
defined by the awareness type that exits there, then
you have a get out, but must then come up with
an example of a constituent part of the intellectual
level that is not related to awareness of it. I cant
think of one and sincerely request your assistance!
Much better regards
Jos
Mark:
I agree a static level is defined by the awareness
type we have of it.
The awareness type at the intellectual level is
non-binary free-floating symbolic manipulation.
Far from Binary actually; the variety of manipulations
at the intellectual level thrill us aesthetically.
This aesthetic thrill is the awareness we have at the
intellectual level methinks.
Mark
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