From: Scott Roberts (jse885@cox.net)
Date: Thu Sep 15 2005 - 07:26:32 BST
Arlo (Ian mentioned),
Carefully stated, but inconclusive. Consider that there is a growing notion
(said by Ian, for example) that says that inorganic and biological processes
are informational. Consider also that this information is valued (if one
holds with the MOQ). As I see it, to speak of valued information is to speak
of language, and so, even though it isn't people speaking at the inorganic
and biological levels, the levels are semiotic. Would you consider this to
be idealism as well? If you disagree that to speak of valued information is
to speak of language, what additional feature does language have that valued
information processing does not? What about my claim that value implies
awareness of value? Do you consider that idealism also? If you disagree that
value implies awareness of value, what makes unconscious value valuable?
- Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlo J. Bensinger" <ajb102@psu.edu>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: MD The intelligence fallacy (was Rhetoric)
"Experience is value". Platt says "yes". I agree.
However, I think in this tangental discussion you've forgotten the MOQ
hierarchy, and somehow conflated "experience" with "the experience of social
humans". I take this from Platt's charge as to how we answer the charge of
Idealism, namely that "our" experience "creates" reality.
It doesn't.
Inorganic "value" creates inorganic patterns. As atoms respond to the value
they
perceive, they create patterns that are later described in our social-level
semiotic (language) as "atoms" or "molecules" or "H20".
Cells, for an example on the next level, respond to biological quality, and
so
create patterns that our social-level semiotic describes as "our body".
Let me stop here, momentarily. If there was no "man", no semiotically
created
social "locus" such as "Platt" or "Arlo" there would still be inorganic and
biological patterns of quality. On there respective levels, atoms, cells,
etc
would still respond to Quality, still form patterns, still "exist". Indeed,
an
"electron" is simply a name for an inorganic pattern of value. Whether
"social
level beings" name it or not, it would still exist.
The world is not created by "social man", only social level values of "the
world". This is much different from Idealism which states, as I understand
it,
that an inorganic pattern of value would not exist unless observed by a
social
level "individual".
According to my reading of the MOQ, in this example, the inorganic pattern
would
exist, but our labeling, say "rock" would not. Thus, "rocks" only exist at
the
social semiotic level, but the undergirding inorganic patterns would most
certainly continue to exist in the absence of the Great and Glorious Man.
They
just wouldn't be semiotically named.
Having said this, "experience" on the social and intellectual level also
creates
existence, when seen from the point of view of same-level patterns. Social
level patterns, ("Arlo", "Platt", "I", "you") create existence on the social
level by virtue of responding to Quality on the social level, the same way
cells create biological patterns by responding to Quality on the biological
level.
Thus, "social" existence is a product of "man's" experience. But biological
and
inorganic patterns are not. You can extrapolate this to the Intellectual
level
as well.
To sum, "Idealism" presuposes that social man's value creates Intellectual,
social, biological and inorganic existance. According to the MOQ, social
value
only "creates" social level patterns. Biological value and inorganic value,
which have nothing to do with man's "awareness" (or any of the buzzwords for
the Great "I") are not dependant on our (social level) experience. Atoms
formed
elements long before "we" experienced them. Cells created "biological
beings"
long before "we" experienced them.
"We" only bring social level patterns into existence, and by virtue of a
collective, Intellectual patterns on the next MOQ level as well.
That is the answer to Idealism.
Arlo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Sep 15 2005 - 07:34:16 BST