From: hampday@earthlink.net
Date: Wed Sep 21 2005 - 06:11:00 BST
Hey there, Bo (you too, Platt) --
While complaining about the general lack of direction on the MD, I said:
> I'm also listening to Platt and Bo reach a consensus of two on their
> agreement that Value is the "ground-stuff" of reality, but only "if
> one finds the MoQ of value!" (I thought Quality was supposed to be
> the ground -- or was it Experience? Oh, that's right, they're all the
> same thing!)
You replied;
> What I meant by " ..if one finds the MOQ of value" is that people
> may have a feeling of "something rotten" without having the
> courage, capacity or whatever it was that launched Pirsig on his
> Quality quest. I was one who felt so intensely, but believed that
> the mind/matter divide was indigenous to existence. I simply had
> to find Pirsig's book before seeing his Quality=Reality solution,
> but it was only a few pages into before I knew that THIS WAS IT!
I take it that seeing Pirsig's Quality=Reality was a real epiphany for you.
Good. Not everyone can be won over by so simple an expression. I think
this "equation" could be translated to mean "reality is what you like about
it". Which is a nice, 'feel-good' homily that doesn't get us very far
toward an understanding of where existence came from, why we are here, and
who/what we really are.
> I haven't followed the thread about "consciousness" because I
> see this as some SOMish leftover - its "angles on pinpoints" -
> from people who hasn't understood the first thing about the MOQ.
> I believe I once told you that if you see consciousness the
> groundstuff, please go ahead and construct a MOC, I don't think
> you bothered to answer.
You misquote me. Essence, not consciousness, is the "groundstuff" of
reality, although I do consider awareness of Value the essence of man. I
already have constructed a philosophy of Essence (POE?); it's called
Essentialism, and it's all detailed on my website, www.essentialism.net .
> I think too many see MOQ's intellect as "intelligence",
> something that is wrong because it is supposed to be
> a static level and "intelligence" can hardly be regarded
> as static.
I agree.
> In my opinion SOM has never been transcended in
> many people's MOQ. OK, my target in this regard
> isn't you or Scott or whoever, because you have never
> shown any interest in it.
I'm not sure what "SOM has never been transcended" means. If you mean that
most Pirsig supporters still talk about Q=R in SOM terms, I couldn't agree
more. The MoQ is not a metaphysical thesis, in my view, but a belief system
loosely based on Eastern mysticism. My personal interest is metaphysics,
which is why I abstain from most of the Quality heirarchy parsing that goes
on here. It doesn't mean I'm not interested so much as that I can't
contribute to a discussion about something I don't subscribe to.
> Quality DOES convince me as the primary source, but I see the
> Dynamic/Static split as important too, why I said that if you see
> consciousness as primary and do the same you have a viable
> Metaphysics of Consciousness. I'm not sure who Cus... is, I
> faintly recall some Medieval bishop and if so God was his primal
> source. And God is Good! Dynamic God/Static God. Inorganic
> God ...etc. Perfect!
It was a writer named David Hoffman, I think, who expressed his belief that
everything in the universe can be reduced to Consciousness. I don't see
that this contradicts the MoQ which asserts that Experience=Reality, since
one must be consciously aware to have experience. But you should learn more
about Nicholas Cusanus (Cusa), one of the principal theorists of the
medieval era, a scientist of his day, whom some regard as the forerunner of
the Renaissance.
Here's a short biography snipped from Wickipedia:
"Nicholas of Cusa (1401 - August 11, 1464) was a cardinal of the Catholic
Church, a philosopher, a mathematician, and an astronomer. He was born
Nikolaus Krebs in Kues, Germany (latinized as "Cusa") to a merchant family,
and received his doctorate in canon law from the University of Padua in
1423. After a successful career as a papal legate, he was made a cardinal
by Pope Nicholas V in 1448 or 1449, and was named Bishop of Brixen in 1450.
His work as bishop was opposed by Archduke Sigismund of Austria; the duke
imprisoned Nicholas in 1460, for which Pope Pius II excommunicated Sigismund
and laid an interdict on his lands. Nicholas of Cusa was never able to
return to his bishopric, however: Sigmund's capitulation in 1464 came a few
days after Nicholas's death at Todi in Umbria.
"Nicholas of Cusa was noted for his deeply mystical writings about
Christianity, particularly the nature of the Trinity. Many believe he was
influenced in this by the work of Thomas a Kempis. He was suspected by some
of holding pantheistic beliefs, but his writings were never accused as being
heretical. Most of his mystical ideas can be found in his essays, De Docta
Ignorantia (Of Learned Ignorance) and De Visione Dei (Vision of God).
Nicholas is also considered by many to be a man ahead of his time in the
field of science. Though he predated Copernicus by half a century, Nicholas
suggested in some of his scientific writings that the Earth was a nearly
spherical shape that revolved around the Sun, and that each star is itself a
distant sun. He was not, however, describing a scientifically verifiable
theory of the universe: his beliefs (which proved uncannily accurate) were
based almost entirely on his own personal speculations and numerological
calculations. He made contributions to the field of mathematics by
developing the concepts of the infinitesimal and of relative motion. Cusa
was the first to use concave lenses to correct myopia."
If you and Platt are interested in solving the riddle of Creation, please
join in my discussion with Reinier who, by the way, is more attuned to the
MoQ than I am. (We could both use some fresh insights.)
Nice to hear from you again, Bo.
Regards,
Ham
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