From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Wed Sep 21 2005 - 19:10:05 BST
Hi Ham
see comments below:
regards
David M
>
> Hi David --
>
>
>> Here's a thought for you.....
>>
>> There is more to reality than the experience of DQ and SQ.
>
> Oh, no! How could that possibly be? Do you mean to say that RMP's two
> novels haven't covered all the bases?
I don't agree with this talk of a cult, I like the MOQ with its DQ/SQ and
levels, and think that the forum folk have generally got minds and lots of
ideas of their own, more so than any other forum I have used. What I have
to say here seems compatible with the MOQ and explores something more
deeply than the MOQ does but I think it is implied by the MOQ as I say.
The MOQ if a worthy change to subject-object metaphysics and its materialist
off-shoot will need exploring in many directions.
>
>> Not only do we have experiences that can have dynamic
>> and static forms of quality, but we also find ourselves
>> deprived of these experiences. Absence is very important.
>> Without absence we could not recognise the world
>> and other people and that the world is bounded.
>
> Do tell! How fascinating.
>
> I have a whole chapter on this topic in my thesis. Only I call your
> absence
> "nothingness". Indeed, without nothingness, we could not distinguish one
> thing from another, or even separate ourselves from what we see and when
> we
> see it.
>
Absence is not nothingness although related. Absence implies that some
quality has been experienced but has withdrawn. It may have only withdrawn
into another room, but that's an important form of transcendence in relation
to experience.
> Nothingness is the boundary that divides all objects and events in time
> and
> space. It's the experiential mode of the finite creature that accounts
> for
> the differentiation of the universe. Nothingness is not a "void" in
> reality
> but the "gap" in sensibility that prevents us from experiencing reality as
> an absolute Whole. In the absence of experience awareness is a
> proprietary
> nothingness (negate) that has no physical or universal reality. So you've
> hit on something that's quite significant in metaphysical circles.
>
I might claim that nothingness is only possible for that form of experience
that
is not the whole/One, and perhaps the One does not really become experienced
prior to the differentiation into the many.
>> As children we learn all about absence. We play with
>> the pretty ball, then it rolls under the chair. It is gone.
>> But we find it and it comes back into our experience.
>> So we discover the world as a container larger than
>> our experience. And we find other people can
>> experience stuff we don't but tell us about it even
>> though we do not expience these parts of the world
>> directly ourselves. We discover in experience that
>> SQ can appear and disappear to us. We discover
>> that the world transcends our experience.
>>
>> The MOQ implies this when it talks about the world
>> as a good idea.
>
> Where is absence or nothingness mentioned in the MoQ?
>
I don't particularly recall, maybe others can help, McWatt does
discuss nothingness I believe. But the claim that the idea of the world
has value implies the capacity to claim the conceptual reality of the
transcendent world (i.e. simply the cosmos that we cannot experience
as a whole, eg dark side of moon, etc) and I suggest this requires an
understanding of what absence implies.
>> But there is also that which transcends the world.
>>
>> Dynamically new SQ enters the world. EG a new species,
>> a new molecule. Enters from where I ask you?
>> From nowhere you might say. Perhaps. Such is
>> the potential of Nothing or DQ. But potential may
>> exist prior to it entering experience. Certainly it can
>> enter an individual before it appears in the
>> larger world as a new idea.
>>
>> And SQ can leave both experience and the world.
>> EG a species or a civilisation can cease to exist in
>> the world. Where does it go?
>
> Things are experienced as arising from and returning to nothingness.
> Such is the illusion we all call the "real" world. Obviously they are
> supported by a primary source that transcends this coming and going. I
> call
> this source Essence. Is my Essence what Pirsig calls "the primary
> empirical
> reality of the world"? If it is, he hasn't called it a source or creator.
> Could that be because it sounds too much like God?
Pretty sure Pirsig calls DQ a source in this way. Why illusion?
Patterns/beings just come and go, this is the reality of our
experience.No need to under value it.
>
>> DQ somehow has access to an infinite creative potential.
>> In a sense this potential exists for us, but it exists in a realm
>> transcendental to the world. But, of course, imaginatively,
>> in experience, we can spend much time exploring this realm,
>> although the realm of imagination is too vast to be
>> contained in experience. Perhaps the realm of the infinite
>> is what we mean by DQ. The world is simply a realm less
>> vast than that of DQ, or perhaps just one particular journey
>> through the realm of all possible worlds.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> I would say WE have access to that infinite creative potential through our
> realization of its Value. But, of course, that's the kind of SOM notion
> that the MoQ seeks to eradicate from our thinking. In general, however,
> you
> have laid out a thought-provoking rationale that may inspire us to reach
> beyond the heirarchy boxes for the "ultimate" reality.
>
> Such ideas help "fill the void".
>
That all experience has a value is more MOQ than SOM.
> Essentially yours,
> Ham
>
>
>
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