From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Fri Oct 21 2005 - 19:09:37 BST
[Platt]
You can think that the MOQ is based on a hallucination if you wish, but at
the end of the chapter on his peyote experience Pirsig summed it up by
writing: [snipped Platt's quote showing Pirsig thought about it after the peyote
illumination]
[Arlo]
I don't "think" it is based on an hallucination. I "know" it is based on the
illumination brought forth by the peyote experience. Again to quote.
"...it looked as though the whole book would center around this long night’s
meeting of the Native American Church. THE CEREMONY WOULD BE A KIND OF SPINE TO
HOLD IT ALL TOGETHER. FROM IT HE WOULD BRANCH OUT AND SHOW IN TANGENT AFTER
TANGENT THE ANALYSIS OF COMPLEX REALITIES AND TRANSCENDENTAL QUESTIONS THAT
FIRST EMERGED IN HIS MIND THERE…
Phædrus couldn’t have gone that distance without the peyote. He would have
just sat there “observing” all this “objectively” like a well-trained
anthropology student. But the peyote prevented that. He didn’t observe, he
participated, exactly as Dusenberry had intended he should do…"
You can keep repeating ad naseum all you want that following this peyote-driven
experience he "thought about it" all you want. I've never denied he thought
about it afterwards, and applied reason and critical thinking to develop the
MOQ. But why do you pretend the germ-kernal is anything different than it was.
Part of that "say it over and over again and it becomes true" kind of thinking?
The MOQ originated in illuminations brought forth by a peyote experience. Plain
and simple. Pirsig says it. The timeline shows it. Nothing even to dispute.
Yep, he "thought about it" afterwards, long and hard. And applied a lot of
critical reasoning to bring the MQO to fruition. But there is no doubt at all
where it all originated, after all Pirsig tells us himself, "FROM IT (the
native american peyote ceremony) HE WOULD BRANCH OUT AND SHOW IN TANGENT AFTER
TANGENT THE ANALYSIS OF COMPLEX REALITIES AND TRANSCENDENTAL QUESTIONS (the
MOQ) THAT FIRST EMERGED IN HIS MIND THERE (the peyote experience)." The MOQ is
the "analysis of complex realities" that "first emerged in his mind there",
during the peyote experience. Pirsig's words. No dispute.
[Platt]
For the life of me I can't fathom what your hang up is. If you want me to
say I don't think you think people are stupid, OK, I'll say it. Arlo
doesn't think people are stupid. Satisfied? He just thinks they buy junk
from Walmart.
[Arlo]
Yep, quite satisfied. You see, every time I challege "why" people believe
something, you condemn me for calling everyone stupid. But then you turn around
and say "people don't think about where their morals come from". And I agree.
So why is it such a hard premise for you to understand that my criticism of the
current dialogue is not that "people are stupid", but that "people don't
question where their beliefs come from"?
I am not alone in my condemnation of the junk that is passed of as "Quality" in
production and consumption. Pirsig was very vocal about it too, wrote ZMM
primarily to deal with "why" that junk is there. All I'm saying is Pirsig's
revelation (no means for Quality in the dialogue) is still the norm. You
yourself agree to this every time you say the MOQ is not in universal
acceptance.
So, given that the MOQ is not in universal acceptance, what evidence do you have
that since ZMM people are suddenly attunded to Quality (in production and
consumption)? Was he wrong? Did some other illumination hit the population? The
SOMist means of production and consumption in ZMM, how have they changed?
[Platt]
As I've said, I see one man's junk as another's treasure. I don't think
Pirsig's goal in life was to rid the marketplace of what he considered to
be junk as if he was a Lord High Commissioner of quality products. In fact
the admitted quality can't be defined. His goal was to offer a rational
basis of morality whose highest value is freedom -- in the marketplace and
elsewhere.
[Arlo]
Dang blasted Platt, methinks you are deliberately being obtuse to torment! I
never said he, nor I, want to "rid the marketplace of junk" by any means other
than getting Quality into the dialogue and letting the market respond
naturally. His "goal" was not simply "freedom" in an "anything goes" sense, but
"freedom" to move towards Quality, individually determined, but always with
Quality foregrounded... errr... upfront in the dialogue. He certainly didn't
want the "junk" of ZMM to keep on being made and consumed just because "people
were free to do so". He wanted to expand their freedoms by giving them
something "better" on which to base their decisions. Quality. Since the MOQ has
not gained univeral acceptance, I don't think people are basing their decisions
on this Quality, they have no dialogue for it, do you?
As for your Walton hero, all he has done is gotten rich bringing the funeral
procession off the Interstates and onto the back roads. Cheap products that
provide slight monetary advantages to consumers, while taking all real capital
out of local economies, replacing meaningful labor (in the Pirsigian sense)
with unconnected, low-paying jobs with no real value to the people who work
them. And no way out, without a dialogue capable of critically examining the
system. Something "Quality" a la ZMM would certainly do.
Arlo
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