From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Fri Oct 21 2005 - 16:32:05 BST
[Erin]
I know you were expresssing the idea that the liberal party wasn't left enough
and I agreed that what you were arguing for was a more extreme left position.
[Arlo]
I still don't think you're getting this, Erin. I am not arguing for a "more
extreme" left postion. Let me try it this way.
There are Left and Right (Big Capital Letters) that represent one axis in the
political spectrum, from Marxism to Fascism. On this big spectrum, modern
"conservatives" and "liberals" are both "a little right of center".
You see, neither "conservatives" nor "liberals" deny monetary capitalism.
"Liberals" being slightly more "left" may want to use some generated money for
social causes, and "conservatives" being slightly more "right" want to use some
generated money for military causes, but BOTH rely on a capitalist, money
economy. True Marxism, moving "Left", is not merely an extreme social
redistribution of money, it denies a money economy completely.
The little online test really did not address the far Right and Left points on
the spectrum, and so the divergence between modern "left" and "right" appears
exaggerated. On a state map of the Northeast, Pennsylvania may seem "really far
away" from parts of New Jersey, but on a map of the continent, "not so much".
So, my point is that on the larger Left and Right spectrum, "conservatives" and
"liberals" are snug up next to each other, both a little right of center, with
the liberals a little more "left", but hardly representing Left (big "L")
thought.
[Erin]
What I wasn't agreeing with was when you wanted to make it out to be that you
weren't either left or right, that independents transcended the right/left
dichotomy.
[Arlo]
No again, Erin. I'm saying two things to this. (1) People are not "left" or
"right", what they think about any given issue moves across this spectrum. The
modern dichotomy forces people to choose "one or the other" on every imaginable
issue, it boxes them in absolutist categories. This is what the "independent"
tries to challenge, to transcend that dichotomy (2) "Left and Right" are only
one axis on the chart (and I believe there to be others than the two on the
online test), and impossible to really capture political thinking entirely.
I'll say something else about "independents". A real independent would not
simply go back and forth on issues between "conservatives" and "liberals", but
likely be all over the chart, indeed, perhaps all over the entire spectrum.
[Erin]
Just like taking that test, on some of the questions you might place to the
right but overall you were left. It seems like you were resisting the
left label, but didn't seem like there was real evidence that the label didn't
fit.
[Arlo]
I've never resisted that I was "left" of Platt on many issues. On some, I may be
even more "right" (gun ownership, perhaps). What I resisted was (1) the modern
left-right dichotomy captures the larger Left-Right spectrum, it doesn't, (2)
the villification of "the other" that is part of the modern dichotomy,
"censorship is indicative of the liberal mind", and (3) that left and right are
the only meaningful axis to consider.
[Erin]
You are a liberal who wants the Democrat party to be more liberal. There are
conservatives who want the Republicans to be more conservative.
[Arlo]
No, Erin. I am a person who leans left on some issues and right on others. I
don't want the "democratic party to be more liberal". Your statement really
shows me how much you buy into the two party dichotomy, that all there are are
republicans and democrats, and all we do is slide them up and down some scale
as we see fit, and that is all there is to the political question.
[Erin]
Your claims almost seem to suggest like you know where the "real" center of
politics is and the two parties don't correspond to it. But the people are
creating the center, it could change with time, there is no "real" center.
[Arlo]
My "claim" suggest that on the *ideological* spectrum, both conservatives and
liberals lie a little right of center. Whether or not the median (the center)
in the current population leans towards "conservatives" or "liberals" is always
in flux, and generally manipulated by party propaganda and fear. Right after
9/11 the center moved considerably "right" (again, small "r") because of
xenophobia and the fear of arabs and terrorists. Right after Katrina the center
moved considerably "left" (again, small "l") because of the fear of the
dismantling of social services. But the ideological "center" doesn't change
until new political ideologies change the spectrum.
Arlo
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