From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Nov 11 2005 - 01:01:26 GMT
Skutvik:
What ZMM describes is the emergence of what is called
SOM...
Mark:
Not at all Skutvik.
ZMM, at this point in ZMM's narrative, describes the
emergence of an intellectually sanctioned system of
thought. That system of thought is rationality.
Rationality eendorses SOM.
Skutvik:
...this is in conflict with something he (That 'he' is
Robert Pirsig) calls Aretê that the ancient "Iliad"
heroes display...
Mark:
Not at all Skutvik.
Aretê is excellence. Intellect can be excellent too.
Aretê includes intellectual excellence as soon as
intellectual systems of thought have developed. So,
the Iliad hero incorporates intellectual excellence
into his repertoire of, 'all rounded-ness'.
Skutvik:
How is this to be understood in a MOQ retrospect if
not as intellectual value's emergence from -
and suppression of social value.
Mark:
You've got yourself in a right old tangle here
Skutvik.
Excellence is excellence at all levels; biological,
social and intellectual. Social excellence, qua
excellence, revels in intellectual excellence, because
it's all excellence. There is no conflict.
Intellectual excellence makes for a better social
entity. Social excellence makes for a better
intellectual excellence.
That's Aretê for you.
Skutvik:
As said in LILA:
Perhaps in Homer’s time, when evolution had not yet
transcended the social level into the intellectual
...etc.
Mark:
Naughty little boy Skutvik. Naughty boy. Let's take a
little look at what is actually said shall we?
"Phædrus remembered now that it had bothered him a
little that in the Odyssey Homer seemed at times...
Mark:
Seemed 'at times', and not all the time. Remember
that.
"to be equating Quality and celebrity."
Mark:
At times celebrity and Quality are equated, but not at
all times. You've conveniently forgot to mention that
haven't you Skutvik?
"Perhaps in Homer's time, when evolution had not yet
transcended the social level into the intellectual,
the two were the same."
Mark:
The two were the same? Quality and celebrity were the
same? Yes. But there is still the intellectual level
which has not transcended the social in the
background.
Now, Skutvik, pray tell us all, how can the social
celebrity AND intellect co-exists at the same time?
Skutvik:
From this it can be derived that SOM is the emerging
intellectual value that challenges the (till then)
ruling social value...
Mark:
Now wait on a moment Skutvik. Don't talk shit Man.
What you should say is this: "Intellectual excellence
begins to challenge social excellence as the ruling
Human value."
No SOM here. SOM has not been intellectually
sanctioned yet. We have to wait until Aristotle for
that.
Skutvik:
SOM is not an idea of an idea-producing intellect,
rather intellect being the mind/matter divide itself.
Mark:
Yes it is. Yes it is. That's where you fuck up big
time Skutvik, and that is what you wake up at night
thinking about isn't it?
You've fucked up BIG time here Mr.
As you have quoted yourself, dick head:
"Phædrus remembered now that it had bothered him a
little that in the Odyssey Homer seemed AT TIMES...
Skutvik:
Only afterwards has it hypnotized us into believing
that idea-producing is it's "nature".
Mark:
Idea production is an hypnotic illusion of an 'idea'
that is mind/matter division?
You're in very deep shit from now on Skutvik.
Skutvik:
It's crucial for intellect to maintain this illusion
lest it will de-masked.
Mark:
I rather think YOU have been de-masked and your little
delusion is at an end Skutvik. Bye bye.
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