From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Mon Mar 10 2003 - 11:57:07 GMT
Hi Wim, DMB.
I think David's conception of ritual is too monolithic. Rituals can be more
or less intellectual, it seems to me. So clearly there existed rituals
before the intellect came along, but equally clearly, I see no logical
contradiction in thinking there might be rituals derived from intellectual
insights, along the lines Wim is describing.
David - if you can, get hold of a copy of 'Wittgenstein, Frazer and
Religion' by Brian R. Clack. It would probably only be available through a
university library, but you might have other access to it. (Don't worry, the
author is an atheist, not a Christian). It has detailed discussions of
ritual and magic that you may find enlightening.
> DMB says:
> Huh? Symbols that stand for a successful hunt are intellectual? I think
that
> idea is very bizzare and has nothing to do with Pirsig's definition of
> intellect. Hunting rituals are very far from intellectual. They are
archaic
> and magical. You know those very ancient cave paintings in France? They
give
> us a pretty good idea what hunting rituals were like. Its even easier to
see
> what they are if we look at American Indian religions. In either case,
even
> the most breif examination will reveal how steeped in magic they were.
They
> had a spiritual relationship with the animals they hunted. They preyed
upon
> them and prayed to them. To those who conducted such rituals, there was
> nothing symbolic about it. It was real and actual and literal.
The following comments of Wittgenstein's, relating to ritual, are ones that
I find suggestive, hopefully you will too (I think there are compatibilities
between him and Pirsig, but I don't think they tend to favour DMB's overall
position):
"The same savage, who stabs the picture of his enemy apparently in order to
kill him, really builds his hut out of wood and carves his arrow skilfully
and not in effigy."
"It goes without saying that a man's shadow, which looks like him, or his
mirror-image, the rain, thunderstorms, the phases of the moon, the changing
of the seasons, the way in which animals are similar to and different from
one another and in relations to man, the phenomena of death, birth, and
sexual life, in short, everything we observe around us year in and year out,
interconnected in so many different ways, will play a part in his thinking
(his philosophy) and in his practices, or is precisely what we really know
and find interesting. How could fire or the similarity of fire to the sun
have failed to make an impression on the awakening mind of man? But perhaps
not 'because he can't explain it' (the foolish superstition of our time) -
for will an 'explanation' make it less impressive?"
"I don't mean that just fire must make an impression on everyone. Fire no
more than any other phenomenon, and one thing will impress this person and
another that. For no phenomenon is in itself particularly mysterious, but
any of them can become so to us, and the characteristic feature of the
awakening mind of man is precisely the fact that a phenomenon comes to have
meaning for him. One could almost say that man is a ceremonial animal. That
is, no doubt, partly wrong and partly nonsensical, but there is also
something right about it." [Wim might like that comment about meaning]
"...the characteristic feature of a ritualistic action is not at all a view,
an opinion, whether true or false, although an opinion - a belief - can
itself be ritualistic or part of a rite."
"I should like to say: nothing shows our kinship to those savages better
than the fact that Frazer has on hand a word as familiar to himself and to
us as 'ghost' or 'shade' in order to describe the views of these people...
An entire mythology is stored within our language."
"I believe that the characteristic feature of primitive man is that he does
not act from opinions (contrary to Frazer)."
"...toward morning, when the sun is about to rise, rites of daybreak are
celebrated by the people, but not during the night, when they simply burn
lamps."
Sam
"Bush's speechwriters may be able to help him talk the talk, but does he
kneel the kneel?" (Alex Pennell)
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