From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Mon Mar 10 2003 - 11:15:06 GMT
Hi Wim,
> I'm not sure if I agree with your (23 Feb 2003 12:03:24 -0000) giving up
on
> ritual, yet. Broadening out the thread entails too much risk, I'm afraid,
to
> get stranded in the disagreement between David B. and me about how to
> distinguish the levels.
I didn't understand this.
>
> I guess one can broaden the meaning of 'ritual' (without making it
> unrecognizable) to make it THE static latch of the social level (as you
> insisted 16 Feb 2003 18:19:35 -0000). It's just that I thought that I had
> found a better way of describing the static latch of the social level in
> general: unthinking behavior copied between generations in processes
> focussed on seeking 'status/celebrity'.
I like your characterisation of the social level; I think it is workable and
useful. Would you be happy with the idea that status and celebrity are the
best way to determine social values?
I would no longer say that ritual is THE static latch.
> I'm not sure if it is very useful to describe the 'pattern that holds
> together a nation' ('Lila' chapter 12) for instance as only a 'ritual',
even
> though rituals can be part of it. 'Symbols created in the brain that stand
> for experience' (from Pirsig's definition of the intellectual level in
> 'Lila's Child') seems broader than 'ritual'. It doesn't really describe
the
> way the level is latched however, but rather what is built on those
latches.
Agreed.
> You ask 16 Feb whether it is this Pirsig's explicit view that putting
social
> patterns of values to sleep is A way of attaining freedom from them
> (presumably an Eastern way), not THE way of doing so.
> Well, he also describes the Western way: 'In the West progress seems to
> proceed by a series of spasms of alternating freedom and ritual.'
Implicitly
> he seems to favor the Eastern way, but he makes explicit that it is not
the
> only way. One could disagree with his preference for the Eastern way by
> stating that in the West people are generally more free from social
patterns
> of values than in the East (I don't know if I agree) and concluding that
the
> Eastern may apparently more easily get stuck along the way of attaining
> freedom than the Western way.
Agreed.
> I think that ritual being (also) a static latch of the intellectual level
is
> a debatable but possible interpretation of Pirsig's statement:
> 'If ritual always comes first and intellectual principles always come
later,
> then ritual cannot always be a decadent corruption of intellect.'
> The implicit conclusion of this statement can be read as: 'then ritual can
> also sometimes be seen as a first product of intellect'.
That's an interesting thought.
> Pirsig indeed wrote that 'ritual might be THE connecting link' between
> social and intellectual patterns of value. So that is a disagreement
between
> him and me: I think symbolic language is another possible link.
I agree with you.
> You wrote 23 Feb under quotes from David B. and me:
> 'I would quibble with this, but in a context of broad agreement.'
>
> Did you mean that broadly you agreed with BOTH David's take on
> distinguishing the 3rd and 4rd level AND with mine??? They are very
> different. I do see value in David's distinction, but only as a
subdivision
> of the 4rd level.
That was an accretion from an early draft, which no longer made sense after
some cutting and pasting. Apologies for the confusion. The comment was more
towards you than David, although I guess I disagree with both of you about
how to distinguish the fourth from the third level.
Sam
"A good objection helps one forward, a shallow objection, even if it is
valid, is wearisome." Wittgenstein
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