From: mark maxwell (laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed Nov 23 2005 - 02:09:10 GMT
--- Michael Hamilton <thethemichael@gmail.com> wrote:
> To the ever-cordial Mr. Maxwell,
>
> On 11/21/05, mark maxwell
> <laughingpines@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Skutvik 14th Nov 2005:
> > In your absence we have made great strides. I
> refer to
> > Mike
> > Hamilton and myself performing the trick of
> "eating
> > the cake and
> > keeping it'
> >
> > Skutvik 18th Nov 2005 (4 days later!)
> > Regarding Mike Hamilton I'm not sure if he vouches
> for
> > the said "eating the cake and keeping it" idea -
> or
> > for the SOL at all - he seems to have dropped out.
> >
> > Mark:
> > In fact, Mr. Hamilton argues against your
> position!
> > You have been deliberately lying to the forum.
> It's
> > here in black and white.
>
> A supporting quote from the last two or three
> months, please.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
Mike said:
To bring all that together - the MOQ is a set of
definitions that can be grasped by a subjective
intellect. It's a 4th-level pattern.
Mark:
This suggestion accords with a view Skutvik rejects:
"Later I began to see it’s not necessary to get rid of
them because the MOQ can encase them neatly within its
structure - the upper two levels being subjective, and
the lower two, objective." (Pirsig, 2002h, pp.502-03)
Mark:
As you recognise...
Mike:
As I understand it, Bo dropped the idea of a 5th level
for the MOQ a long time ago, and has been trying to
"have his cake and eat it" ever since.
Mark:
Dropped the 5th level mith much dummy spitting i can
tell you.
But where does Skutvik go from here? Time for a new
Universe...
Mike:
I think he's (Skutvik) saying the same thing as me
when he writes: "the MOQ has created a new universe
[i.e. Quality] while its intellectual framework
remains behind as an intellectual pattern".
Mark:
How can an intellectual pattern - the MOQ - create
Quality?
Just a moment ago, according to Skutvik, Quality
created S/O as it's intellect didn't it?
"Still later I saw that the subject-object distinction
is very useful for sharply distinguishing between
biological and social levels... At present, I don’t
see that the terms ‘subject’ and ‘object’ need to be
dropped, as long as we remember they are just levels
of value, not expressions of independent scientific
reality." (Pirsig, 2002h, pp.502-03)
Mark:
"...expressions of independent scientific reality" for
Skutvik are objective. The 'O' of Quality's S/O
intellect. But the 'O' of Quality's S/O is a 4th level
pattern grasped by a subjective intellect.
Hey! Hang around with Skutvik long enough and you'll
end up sounding like him - a confused old fart with no
understanding of ZMM 30 years after it's publication.
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