From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu Nov 24 2005 - 14:00:58 GMT
Hi Paul, Matt:
Platt previously:
> >To put it another way, art critic Clement Greenberg describes the esthetic
> >experience: "Esthetic enjoyments are immediate, intuitive, undeliberate
> >and involuntary leaving not room for conscious application of standards,
> >criteria, rules or precepts."
> >
> >I've always felt that Greenberg and Pirsig were describing the same
> >phenomenon.
> >
> >> Paul: I think your confusion comes from conflating Dynamic 'value' with
> >> static 'value judgements'.
> >
> >Indeed, that may be the problem. Do you see experiencing Dynamic 'value'
> >the same as Greenberg describes the aesthetic experience?
>
> Paul: It certainly sounds the same from what you've quoted above although
> historically terms such as "immediate" and "intuitive" cause problems in a
> philosophical sense, as Matt can point out. "Standards, criteria, rules
> and precepts" are definitely part of the static quality which contributes
> the context within which one makes value judgements and not part of ongoing
> value itself.
I don't see historical philosophical problems with "immediate" and
"intuitive" in Greenberg's description. "Immediate" means without time for
reflection and "intuitive" means without thinking, both descriptive of
Paul's interpretation of Pirsig's "ongoing value" experience. If Matt has
reason to think otherwise, I invite him to explain.
Anyway, I'm glad Paul and I see eye to eye, except I still get hung up on
the distinction between a value judgment made intuitively (without
reflection) and a value judgment requiring, as Paul, says, time-consuming
"deliberation." I lean toward the way Vitzthum expressed Quality
experience in his paper "Philosophical Materialism, saying that sense
experience and value judgments are "simultaneous and identical processes:"
"Physical sensing and moral judgment have from the start been simultaneous
and identical processes, and even the most refined and abstruse moral
reasoning is rooted in the slime and grit of earth's natural history."
But, I may be getting to picky-picky. That Pirsig's value experience is
essentially aesthetic is good enough for me.
Regards,
Platt
P.S. Anyone interested in supplementary reading material for extra credit
can get Vitzthum's paper at:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_vitzthum/materialism.html
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