From: Scott Roberts (jse885@localnet.com)
Date: Mon Nov 28 2005 - 21:39:47 GMT
Case,
Scott said:
You can build a logic gate out of pipes and water (and valves). Once it is
built, the direction of the water's flow is determined strictly by gravity
and whether the valves are open or shut, and the opening and shutting of the
valves is in turn determined by gravity and whether other valves are open or
shut. Logic gates built out of transistors and wire are the same. There is
no choice and no options. It is a perfectly Newtonian machine, which
requires no interpretation for anything to happen. We can look at it and
interpret what it does, but that's all.
[Case]
Gates of a sort can be constructed to guide the direction of anything that
flows. Traffic signs function as logic gates to determine the flow of
traffic. If you build logic gates into the flow of water they will direct
it. But once they are introduced into the system the flow is no longer
random it is determined by how the gates interpret their input. I still say
the flow constanty presents choices to the gate states are the result of
interpretation of the raw data.
Scott:
Water flowing down a river is not flowing randomly either. Where is there
choice?
Case said:
You seem not to want to call this interpretation. Ok, so what would
interpretation be then?
Scott:
When the representamen (typically some physical thing/event) stands for
something else.
--------------------------------------
[Case]
We keep coming back to this mysterious term Consciousness. To the extent
that you are calling it an undefined source of all things I might be able to
buy it. But usually the term comes with lots of other baggage. Does your
version of consciousness have a goal? Is it just like us only bigger? How
does it differ from just plain old chance?
Scott:
Here's David Chalmers on "what is consciousness""
"[Consciousness] is perhaps best characterized as "the subjective quality of
experience". When we perceive, think, or act, there is a whirr of causation
and information processing, but this processing does not usually go on in
the dark. There is an internal aspect; there is something it feels like to
be a cognitive agent. This internal aspect is conscious experience.Conscious
experience ranges from vivid color sensations to experiences of the faintest
background aromas; from hard-edged pains to the elusive experience of
thoughts on the tip of one's tongue;..."
Although this is in SOM phraseology (which is probably unavoidable), this is
what I mean by consciousness -- my metaphysical stuff on consciousness
builds on an understanding of consciousness of this sort, but as far as this
discussion goes, this is sufficient.
---------------------------------------
Scott said:
Insofar as one is mimicking the action of neurons with logic gates one is
showing that the spatio-temporal actions of neurons do not add up to
consciousness. This is because with a system of logic gates, because each
one is separated in time and/or space from all others, there can be no
awareness of anything larger than the state of an input wire, i.e., low or
high voltage. (And there can't even be awareness of that, since somehow the
gate must be aware of the possibility that, if low it could have been high,
and vice versa.) The same applies, of course, to the spatio-temporal
activity of neurons, so the spatio-temporal activity of neurons can regulate
consciousness, but can't produce it.
[Case]
So why can't the logic gates be said to regulate the flow of consciousness
as well? Consciousness manifested by the flow of electrons. But again I
really could use a little help with what Consciousness is.
Scott:
There might be consciousness in the electrons, but would you say that a
river is regulating your consciousness as you're floating down it in a boat
with your eyes shut, thinking about dinner?
Meanwhile, how about addressing the question of how, in a system of logic
gates -- given the assumption of spatio-temporal separation -- there can be
any awareness of anything larger than the state of an input wire (or a
single neuron firing, or whatever you suppose to be at the foundation of
conscious experience).
- Scott
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