From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Mar 17 2003 - 02:53:44 GMT
Sam and all MOQers:
I still have about a dozen posts flagged for response with only a few
minutes left until next weekend. (sigh) Wish I had more time. A few
comments...
Sam said:
The following comments of Wittgenstein's, relating to ritual, are ones that
I find suggestive, hopefully you will too (I think there are compatibilities
between him and Pirsig, but I don't think they tend to favour DMB's overall
position):
"The same savage, who stabs the picture of his enemy apparently in order to
kill him, really builds his hut out of wood and carves his arrow skilfully
and not in effigy."
DMB says:
Not in effigy. Right on. I think this is consistent with Pirsig's
distinction between ACTUALLY and SYMBOLICALLY. To the savage, who wasn't
really all that savage, stabbing a picture ACTUALLY killed his enemy or
prey.
"I don't mean that just fire must make an impression on everyone. Fire no
more than any other phenomenon, and one thing will impress this person and
another that. For no phenomenon is in itself particularly mysterious, but
any of them can become so to us, and the characteristic feature of the
awakening mind of man is precisely the fact that a phenomenon comes to have
meaning for him. One could almost say that man is a ceremonial animal. That
is, no doubt, partly wrong and partly nonsensical, but there is also
something right about it." [Wim might like that comment about meaning]
DMB says:
Man is a ceremonial animal. Isn't that what Pirsig is saying? Ritual all day
long. Isn't that how he put it?
"...the characteristic feature of a ritualistic action is not at all a view,
an opinion, whether true or false, although an opinion - a belief - can
itself be ritualistic or part of a rite."
"I believe that the characteristic feature of primitive man is that he does
not act from opinions (contrary to Frazer)."
DMB says:
Neither true nor false, not a view or opinion at all. Isn't that what I've
been saying? Rituals and myths are valid only as rituals and myths. As
facts, they are impossible non-sense. They are NOT intellectual and they
aren't supposed to be. Expecting them to and wanting them to make
intellectual sense IS the death of God.
"I should like to say: nothing shows our kinship to those savages better
than the fact that Frazer has on hand a word as familiar to himself and to
us as 'ghost' or 'shade' in order to describe the views of these people...
An entire mythology is stored within our language."
DMB says:
An entire mythology is stored in the language. Yes, not only does this
support the idea that common sense language represents our most fundamental
tradition and is therefore a social level thing, but also helps to explain
what Pirsig means when he says all intellect is derived from that level. In
fact, as Pirsig paints it, we are far more than just the kin to these
myth-minded savages. We ARE them. We can't escape this dimension or level of
our beings anymore than we can escape our bodies.
"...toward morning, when the sun is about to rise, rites of daybreak are
celebrated by the people, but not during the night, when they simply burn
lamps."
DMB says:
I piss. I fill the kettle and put fire under it. I smoke. I grind, brew and
drink coffee. I drink coffee. I drink coffee. I poop.
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