From: Scott R (jse885@spinn.net)
Date: Thu Mar 27 2003 - 22:42:44 GMT
Sam,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizaphanian" <elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: MD mental and neural states
> Hi Scott,
>
> > > I have one question: why can't consciousness be an emergent property?
> >
> > Consciousness can (and does) evolve (Barfield's book is all about this,
> how
> > our perception is different from that of earlier times). My argument is
an
> > attempt to show that consciousness cannot be an emergent property (that
> is,
> > cannot emerge out of non-consciousness). It is a reductio ad absurdum of
> > what I call the conventional picture of perception, that is, one that
> > assumes that the fundamental stratum of reality consists of
> > non-consciousness entities, yet when they get organized in certain
complex
> > ways (i.e., as nervous systems), somehow consciousness happens.
Spacetime
> is
> > part of that conventional picture. So when mystics speak of
> > non-spatiotemporal reality, I think they should be listened to.
>
> Why can't all matter be incipiently conscious, which is only manifested
when
> it attains a certain order of complexity? I still don't understand why you
> reject that. (I'm probably being particularly dense at the moment)
It could be, but I see assuming that as a weak response to the argument. It
would still be necessary that space and time be transcended for the
incipient consciousness of elementary particles to merge into our perception
of big and complex things, so I see assuming that electrons or whatever have
some sort of ur-conscioousness as not getting us very far.
My preferred response is to assume that matter, along with space and time,
is a manifestation of full-blown, not incipient, consciousness. To put it
another way, the universe of space, time, mass, and observers of same, is
one way that consciousness creates reality. It should be noted that this
does not make matter unreal. What is illusory is its unconscious appearance
to us stuck in our current stage of human evolution.
>
> I'm interested in the space-time/mystical question, ie that consciousness
> determines space-time. Have you ever read any Stephen Baxter?
No, will check him out.
- Scott
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