From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Tue May 06 2003 - 14:47:55 BST
Hi Scott,
: Well, my point is that you don't need to spend years in meditation and pass
: the scrutiny that Lerner describes to become a Christian priest or minister
: (n.b., Lerner did not become a "master" or whatever, at least not in the
: book.). Certainly there is a lot of this kind of spiritual activity, but the
: ones who really pursue it are considered "contemplatives", and hide
: themselves away in monasteries and convents, as opposed to being the public
: face of the church. But I acknowledge that this is now starting to change.
Hmmm. I'm halfway between saying "Yes, that's right" and "No that's wrong"! Certainly in the Church
of England you're expected to have a 'spiritual director', which is an analogue of sorts to a
meditation teacher in Buddhism. I'd say the problem has been an over-emphasis on academic studies,
rather than the spiritual side of things. Also, I think as soon as you get an institution you get
recruitment and training that is (at least in part) geared around maintaining that institution.
That's not what I think of as the 'tradition' though. Things would be much more interesting if the
contemplative elements were more at the forefront, I agree.
: I agree up to a point. Berger's point in The Heretical Imperative is that
: *if* you are a modern, well-educated person then you *have* to question your
: tradition, because there are all these other traditions you have been
: exposed to and who's to say which one is the "right" one. My point is that
: there currently isn't a well-articulated Western theology "fit for
: intellectuals".
That's why I'm writing my book....
: In part, I find, this is because the leaders feel obliged to
: pander to the social level. So there is a lot of guff about sharing and
: dealing with existential despair, but not about working out (say) the logic
: of DQ and SQ. In my opinion -- and as opposed to Matthew Fox, by the way --
: liberal Christianity needs to reemphasize the fundamental reality of
: Original Sin -- as I interpret it, of course :).
Agree.
: Again, I agree up to a point. My complaint about Western traditions is that
: it remains difficult to dig deep. Too much chaff with the wheat. (Again, I
: must acknowledge that this is in practice true of Eastern religions as well.
: The irony is that the Westerner looking at Eastern religions has the
: advantage of having most of that chaff removed by the transmitters. D.T.
: Suzuki, by the way, is the main transmitter of Zen to the West. He didn't
: mention those answers-to-koan books :)
I guess you have to know where to look (and perhaps how). I wonder how far the core truths are
irreducibly Christian, though, ie they can't be 'translated' or 'transmitted' into modern thought
forms (perhaps the modern thought forms presuppose that there is always an 'essence' that can be
extracted and transmitted; if this presupposition is rejected, where do you go?).
: I agree that if you have been raised in a tradition, it is usually best to
: stay in it (unless it is exclusivist, or otherwise Bad). But there are a lot
: like me and, I presume, DMB, who left the tradition well before it started
: to sink in on an intellectual level. So when I do start investigating it has
: to "prove" itself. If I am looking around, now convinced that mysticism is
: where it's at, it is a lot easier to discern it in the transplanted Eastern
: traditions than in the Western. Indeed, it took Barfield and Georg Kuhlewind
: to clue me in that Christianity may have something to say that Buddhism
: doesn't.
That's the problem that Christianity faces, I agree.
"Christianity is in the first place an Oriental religion, and it is a mystical religion. These
assertions sound strange today, in an age when it is generally assumed that to be a Christian means
to lead a good life. As for prayer, what does that amount to but a set of exercises which are both
pointless and tedious? Nevertheless, whilst our consumer society has lost all feeling for mysticism,
on the fringes there are thousands of people thirsting for it. When we see the shallow syncretism
[ie Wilber IMHO], the sentimental fascination with anything Eastern, and the bogus 'gurus' crowding
round for the pickings, it is easy to sneer. But instead of laughing the Churches ought to be
examining their consciences. Whose fault is it that so many have to resort to Tao or Zen in order to
rediscover truths which were actually part of the Christian heritage right from the beginning? Who
has hidden from them the fact that of all Oriental religions Christianity is the best and most
complete?"
(From the Preface to "The Roots of Christian Mysticism", Olivier Clement)
Cheers
Sam
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