From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sun May 25 2003 - 19:18:35 BST
Hi Platt,
Yes indeed I'd love as many reactions as possible. As I said to Wim, my thoughts are not only still
developing, I hope they continue to do so, and other people's comments are (mostly!) a tremendously
helpful stimulus to preventing static stagnation.
So: I'm glad you're happy with the 'autonomous individual' bit; I think that's probably the most
important element. Some other comments on your comments follow.
: Where we part is in your assertion that individual autonomy "is not
: primarily dependent upon reason, but upon emotional maturity." As examples
: you point to music; excellence in sports, opera, ballet, art,
: architecture; hosting an outstanding dinner party with close friends;
: watching a beloved child win a prize at school. Then you make a central
: switch by saying, "Once we take away the elements that are valued by the
: biological and social levels . . ." as if these experiences you describe
: demand MORE than biological and/or social level satisfactions. I maintain
: they do not.
I think that my 'scatter-shot' technique, in listing all those examples, didn't make my central
point clearer - and certainly some of them are much more debatable than others. As it is emotional
maturity which (as you correctly point out) is the 'hinge' of level 4 for me, it would probably be
better to have concentrated on that. Anyhow - let's look at a specific example, which, as I
mentioned to Wim, is for me a pretty good one. A Rembrandt portrait - how is that resolvable into
biological and social satisfactions? (I'm assuming you're still happy with 'intellect' meaning
logical and/or scientific?) I think there is a remainder once you 'remove' the patterns that are
biologically or socially derived, ie the physical stuff the portrait is made of, and the social
motivations (pay?) that bring it into being. (Shakespeare could be an alternative example). I think
that the quality of the painting cannot be separated from the emotional insight and maturity that
governed the 'sight' that Rembrandt brought to bear, and I don't think that emotional Quality is
resolvable to level 2 and level 3 patterns.
: To back up my case, I give you Pirsig's testimony::
:
: "The MOQ sees emotions as a biological response to quality and not the
: same thing as quality." (Lila's Child)
I don't think Pirsig has a good handle on emotions, and this is possibly the major part of my
disagreement with him (that's why it's my #1 objection). I agree that emotions begin as a biological
response to quality, but I think they 'scale up' with each level, ie shame is a socially constructed
emotion. In the same way, I think the ability to think for oneself (a key part of level 4, I think
we agree) (and as opposed to simply thinking, which I think happens in level 3) is dependent upon
emotional maturity, ie the development of the virtues, which are focussed on the individual not the
society within which that individual is born. Those virtues I think are emotional constructions, not
intellectual constructions.
:
: Since the autonomous individual pattern includes (and depends on)
: inorganic, biological and social patterns I see no need to introduce more
: than the logical, scientific outlook to round out the intellectual level.
: After all, a scientist can throw an excellent dinner party, enjoy the
: opera and love her husband as much as an old bio/social-driven copywriter
: like me. :-)
OK - a specific question for you, given what I remember about your preferences <grin>. When Dagny
Taggart chooses to have sex with Hank Rearden, was this an expression of level 2 values? Or (the
mind boggles) level 3 values? I don't believe it was, you see, and I think that is the point of the
book. "We are those who do not disconnect the values of their minds from the action of their
bodies... You knew that the physical desire I was damning as our mutual shame, is neither physical
nor an expression of one's body, but the expression of one's mind's deepest values, whether one has
the courage to know it or not."
But I could be wrong.
Cheers
Sam
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