From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon May 26 2003 - 03:14:20 BST
Steve:
Wilber's Integral Psychology is definitely on my list for summer reading. I
assume that he goes into greater detail in working psychologists such as
Kohlberg, Maslow, Erickson, and Piaget into his system than he does in SES.
dmb:
Yea, as the title tells, Integral Psychology propably has some of the
details you're looking for. But also check the end notes. If I recall SES
properly, the detail is there. His end notes act to fill in areas of
interest as desired rather than letting the larger picture get bogged down
by the sheer volume of it all.
Steve:
Also, though Wilber integrates such psychologists into his system which
seems to make it easy to then translate into Pirsig's, Wilber does not have
a social level. Because he looks at social and individual aspects of all
occasions, he doesn't seem to see a social level as a stage of human
development. His stages are most generally described as matter, body, mind,
soul, spirit. Like Pirsig's MOQ levels, I can understand these as levels of
awareness, but Wilber is missing a social step perhaps between body and
mind. (At least such a stage would seem to be needed if my hypothesis about
humans developing through the MOQ levels as stages of development.)
dmb says:
No. I'm pretty sure you've made a mistake here. You're taking the "social"
in Pirsig's social level to mean collective. But Pirsig also has the
fictional Rigel and many historical figures to use as examples of social
level individuals look like. I mean its not Pirsig's mission to elaborate on
the I and we dimensions of each level, but its there. Wilber certainly
includes stages in which myth and ritual are the guiding lights and
distinquishes those stages from the rational and scientific stages. I'm not
giving you much to chew on right now because I'm already late, but I could
make a clear case next week if you're interested.
Steve:
If not for this problem, the project I suggested would be a simple
translation of Wilber into MOQ terms since he has already done the work on
integrating cognitive, moral, cultural, and spiritual development in terms
of consciousness.
dmb:
Even though I think that particular problem is unreal and really just matter
of said misconception, I still think it would NOT be simple to translate. It
would be a hell of alot of fun, but it wouldn't be easy. It would deeply
enrich one's understanding of the MOQ, but it would take real work.
Steve:
I think Wilber may think of the social level as a stream of development with
stages of its own rather than as a stage of development in itself. I really
didn't want to get too much into the child development project until I have
more of a chance to read and think about it. But I'd be very interested to
hear the thoughts of Platt and DMB and any other Wilber readers to know how
they see the MOQ social level in Wilber's work. Is Wilber missing the
social level?
dmb:
OK. Next week. I know just the thing.
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