Re: MD The Eudaimonic MoQ

From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 01 2003 - 10:28:51 BST

  • Next message: Elizaphanian: "Re: MD The Eudaimonic MoQ"

    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I said re Rembrandt:
    : > I think there is a
    : > remainder once you 'remove' the patterns that are
    : > biologically or socially derived, ie the physical
    : > stuff the portrait is made of, and the social
    : > motivations (pay?) that bring it into being.

    You said:
    : There is, that remainder is intellectual quality plus
    : Dynamic Quality.

    And I say, the issue is what is to count as 'intellectual' - I think there are static elements
    involved in the production of a Rembrandt painting which are neither social, nor logical, nor
    scientific, but can be characterised by reference to the preferences, tastes and insights of the
    unique individual called Rembrandt (that unique individual being a stable pattern of values
    describable by reference to the fourth level).

    : > I don't think Pirsig has a good handle on emotions,
    : > and this is possibly the major part of my
    : > disagreement with him (that's why it's my #1
    : > objection).
    :
    : I would say that emotion is biological response plus
    : social meaning.

    I think that's part of the answer, but I agree with Damasio - 'It does not seem sensible to leave
    emotions and feelings out of any overall concept of mind' - in other words, emotions (in a
    particular form) are essentially involved in our intellectual processes. Therefore, any account of
    level 4 which does not take them into account (ie 'manipulation of symbols' is at best incomplete,
    at worst deeply misleading). I try to incorporate emotions into level 4 through my discussion of
    virtues and wisdom, ie "emotional intelligence".

    : I agree that emotions begin as a
    : > biological
    : > response to quality, but I think they 'scale up'
    : > with each level, ie shame is a socially constructed
    : > emotion.
    :
    : The 'blushing' or similar response is biological, the
    : context and meaning is social. The concept of 'shame'
    : is intellectual. The idea that 'shame is a social
    : construct' is also intellectual.

    How would you classify 'self-control'?

    : Having publicly struggled with the MOQ definition of a
    : human being, I concluded the following:
    :
    : The 'individual' is an inorganic field of stable
    : quantum probabilities, organised by DNA into a
    : coherent biological body, many social people, a
    : collection of concepts and ideas and with a Dynamic
    : awareness.

    So you agree with Pirsig that, under analysis, the notion of a 'self' vanishes into all the things
    which compose it, ie it can be 'reduced' without remainder? I think that the primary static latch of
    the fourth level can be described as a 'self' of a particular sort. (Whether there is also a self
    which functions at the third level, ie which has no independent faculty for responding to quality
    separate from its social construction, is something I'm still considering, but I think there
    probably is. It may be the other side of the 'machine language interface' from what I call the
    autonomous individual.)

    : Perhaps it is Dynamic awareness that you refer to when
    : you talk of emotional maturity and individual
    : autonomy?

    I think they are linked, but conceptually separable. Primarily because of the possibility of static
    latching - there are patterns (eg of consistent preferences over time, ie virtues etc) which reveal
    the constitution and identity of the autonomous individual. Consequently, although the original
    establishment of a virtue may be a response to DQ, its ongoing operation is an example of SQ. As
    such, I would say that emotional maturity is primarily a large reservoir of accumulated static
    patterns (of virtue).

    Thanks
    Sam

    "Phaedrus is fascinated too by the description of the motive of 'duty toward self' which is an
    almost exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'dharma', sometimes described as the 'one' of the
    Hindus. Can the 'dharma' of the Hindus and the 'virtue' of the Ancient Greeks be identical?" - The
    Eudaimonic MoQ says yes. "Lightning hits!"

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