From: Paul Turner (pauljturner@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun 02 2003 - 10:20:24 BST
Hi Johnny
> PS, Paul, thanks for your reply earlier. I thought
> about the seeming
> materialism contradiction of the MOQ when I first
> read Lila also - the
> levels seem to imply a materialism of atoms, then
> molecules, then animals,
> all before we get to the humans to have a
> consciousness to peceive them.
I didn't actually say there is a contradiction, what I
would say is that the MOQ is an intellectual pattern
of value which explains experience. The idea that
atoms or molecules existed before humans is a good
one, carbon dating, fossils and such like demand an
explanation in which inorganic patterns and biological
patterns predate humans and there is no compelling
reason to reject it.
> There really is no contradiction, the patterns
> really exist, and thus it is
> equivilent to speak of atoms or to speak of the
> pattern of atoms. So I
> don't think saying that I am seeing the hierarchy
> from an SOM viewpoint
> explains the contradiction,
That really wasn't what I was saying, see below.
I think the
> contradictoin is only resolved by
> acknowledging that intellectually and socially
> focused individuals are less
> dynamic, not more dynamic.
The 'contradiction' is resolved as such:
PIRSIG: "It is important for an understanding of the
MOQ to see that although 'common sense' dictates that
inorganic nature came first, actually 'common sense'
which is a set of ideas, has to come first. This
'common sense' is arrived at through a web of socially
approved evaluations of various alternatives. The key
term here is 'evaluation', i.e. quality decisions. The
fundamental reality is not the common sense or the
objects and laws approved of by common sense but the
approval itself and the quality that leads to it."
Lila's Child Note 97
cheers
Paul
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