From: August West (augustwestd@yahoo.com)
Date: Tue Jun 10 2003 - 21:21:12 BST
Scott & Joe
thanks, opens new possibilities that I hadn't thought
about .. I don't know if I agree or not yet.. I
haven't fully disected it yet..
I always thought that I did create events... I was a
hockey goalie.. I made saves.. which in return changed
the events or more perfectly.. eliminated all the
other possiblities and happened.. I remember this
distinctly because I always couldn't wait for the
other team to get the puck and try to score on me so I
could change the course of the game... this is how
stars are born.. I loved playing for the worst teams
so my difference was most noticeable.
your disaproval of dualism, I think will be the first
thing I test.. because.. I do belive it exists.. for
instance.. I am Matter and Mind.. this is why I asked
my first question. I was confused as to what you ment
by "me". There are two meanings the word "me". There
is a physical me and there is a me that exists in the
mind.. here's the other part.. they are connected
somehow... my heart and my lungs they work without
thought.. but the arms and legs that I needed to make
saves in hockey, they move at the apropriate time and
apropriate speed to stop someone's shot at me
(hopefully).. and I am thinking the whole time, well
sometime's its guess work.. but its educated guesses
I guess at the present moment.. I can accept that
choices made up my history, and that I am conscience
of my history (or some of it).. and that effects
choices.. but I'm having trouble with how the concept
of responsibility fits into what you are saying here.
if a choice is made and I act on it.. In chosing, most
of the time (no saying what I'll do when I'm really
drunk or being absent minded.. I got to step one.. I'm
an alcoholic) I am conscience of my being responsiable
of my actions.. so in this sense I don't completely
make a choice based on this.. but am alteast a little
aware of this and this does play a factor in my
actions.
But.. I'm gonna print what you said out.. and think
about it a few days..
-August
--- Joe <jhmau@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7 June 2003 Scott writes:
>
> Hi Scott, August and All,
>
> Scott:
> I am saying that I do not distinguish an "I" from
> the choices (and all other
> events occurring in what I call "my mind", such as
> the "not
> distinguishing").
>
> > In this view, the word "I" is to be considered
> only as what linguists call
> > anaphora: the locating in space and time of where
> the saying,
> > distinguishing, choosing occurs.
>
> The word "exist" means to "stand out". In that sense
> I exist (my body can be
> seen, what I say can be heard). But I do not assume
> that I have what
> Buddhists call self-existence: any sort of
> permanence. To think otherwise is
> to be a dualist: there is an "I" and there is the
> choice.
>
> But to think that I am only a location of mental
> events would seem to be
> contradicted by memory, or more generally,
> continuity. When I wake up in the
> morning, I "remember who I am". Or I can hear a note
> of a song. If there is
> no continuous "I" what makes it possible that I hear
> the whole note, and not
> feel 440 changes a second of air pressure? Or how
> can I distinguish one
> change in air pressure -- that is, there had to be a
> state of low pressure,
> then a state of high pressure. How did the two
> states get connected? (To say
> the brain connects them just pushes the problem into
> the brain: the nerve
> cells are in one state then another, and maybe there
> is another nerve cell
> that only gets excited when those two other states
> occur. So what detects
> the difference between an excited nerve cell and an
> unexcited one? Only
> another nerve cell.)
>
> > If space and time are fundamental, there is no way
> they can get connected.
> > Yet they are connected. Therefore, space and time
> are not fundamental.
> > Otherwise, one has to say that in every perceptive
> act I transcend space
> and
> > time. But to do so puts us back in dualism: there
> is a non-spatio-temporal
> I
> > that has the power to observe spatio-temporal
> events.
>
> Well, that's no good, so what I think is the case is
> that the act
> ofobservation creates the spatio-temporality of
> events. And, to avoid
> solipsism, the same act creates the "I". Likewise,
> the choice creates the
> particular typed words and the "I". (That is, the
> solipsist can say that I
> create the events, while what I am suggesting is
> that what we call "things
> and events" are all fundamentally
> non-spatio-temporal and it is the act of
> observation that turns them into spatio-temporal
> things and events. For what
> it's worth, this also provides a consistent
> interpretation of quantum
> weirdness.).
>
> joe: I am trying to describe an instinctive
> sensing of reality, which is a
> way of knowing the indefinable. In that description
> I must distinguish
> between Patterns which are created by dq static
> latching to sq, and Patterns
> of the indefinable which are generated by a
> mystical, artistic sense. How
> can I distinguish them? "Free Will" or "Free
> association" is the
> distinguishing mark of a mystical or artistic
> capability.
>
> In every patern there is dq and sq. In the mystical
> artistic pattern the dq
> is a part of the individual knower's pattern.
> Existence is indefinable and
> is only an aspect of a pattern unless I accept
> infinite regression. I can
> define "existence" as "standing out" only by a
> metaphor to my own
> indefinable "existence", which is then included in a
> pattern of "existence."
>
> Is the gravity field generated by a body
> indefinable? Yes, since it cannot
> be separated from the fody. Yet I know it as a
> force, and I artistically
> describe it with mathematics.
>
> Purpose is a specific direction to a force, and DNA
> generates an indefinable
> "purpose" in an indefinable "gravity". In a way the
> organic level can be
> artistically described as "anti-gravity" not in the
> sense that it is not
> subject to gravity, but in the sense that it adds
> another indefinable
> existence to gravity, namely towards a specific
> goal.
>
> For the mystical, artistic sense, I propose a field
> generated by DNA called
> "awareness". For an instinctive sensing of reality
> there have to be
> separate brains to intuit the indefinable. In the
> inorganic order there is
> only one movement to gravity. In the organic order
> there is one brain
> adding a knowledge of purpose to the movement of
> gravity. In the social
> order there are two brains adding a knowledge of
> purpose and existence to
> the movement of gravity. In the intellectual order
> there are three brains
> adding a knowledge of purpose, existence, and
> quality creating patterns in
> awareness and memory to the movement of gravity.
>
> It is easy to become confused and shift between
> points of view when
> discussing the indefinable moral orders and "free
> will".
>
> "I" my awareness.
>
> "my mind" Pattern of my awareness.
>
> "not distinguishing" No difference between a
> pattern generated by
> knowledge, and one generated by the mystical,
> artistic sense in awareness
> and memory.
>
> "exist" "stand out" Mystical, artistic patterns.
>
> "remember who I am" Pattern of awareness and the
> different brains.
>
> "things and events" patterns combined by a
> mystical, artistic sense of the
> awareness and memory, distinguished by knowledge of
> quality from different
> sources.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 -
> http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
>
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the
> instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Jun 10 2003 - 21:21:34 BST