From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jun 19 2003 - 19:03:01 BST
Hi Rick, and all MoQers,
[Rick, I'm going to break our Transformation of Love discussion up into some
sub topics because it's gotten so long, and also in the hope that others who
are put off by polarized arguments about marriage and sex may be interested
in other aspects of the conversation.]
> JOHNNY
> > ... It is
> > definitely related to moralty though, and the discussion of how society
> > controls biology. These laws are part of it, but I think Pirsig is
>wrong
> > that we require a policeman to make us follow them. We enforce them
> > ourselves, when we say no.
>
>RICK
>Glib again... what if we don't say no? Would you say that about all of the
>laws?
Yes, I would say that all laws are mainly self-enforced. The policeman's
gun, or fear of getting caught, is not the main thing that keeps us from
commiting crime, respect for society's laws is. I do realize that if
society stopped enforcing laws with policemen, then more people who do not
respect the law would break it. And that would contibute to other people
following suit, and eventually we'd be overrun with crime. By enforcing the
laws and punishing criminals, we keep the number of criminals down, and
crime under control. I agree with Pirsig on that, because not all people
respect the law. But I disagree that it is the primary thing that keeps
most people from crime, as Pirsig seems to imply, and I don't think it is
glib at all to say that. Don't you think that respect for law is something
to be cultivated and instilled in people? Isn't that better than having to
create a huge police state to enforce everything? So saying my statement is
glib (as in trivial? or deceitful? or obvious?) seems to say that respect
for law is trivial, no one really has it, and indeed it is saying that
respect is trivial in general. Respect is not a constant, some cultures
cultivate more respect than others, they expect more respect from their
citizens.
This goes to the heart of the MoQ, in that morality drives behavior,
morality maintains patterns. Water doesn't need a gun to get H and O to
bond, H and O bond because of the moral pattern to create the pattern of
water.
>JOHNNY
> Sometimes we say no even if we want to say yes.
> > And it isn't only a rational decision based on avoiding complications
>and
> > pain or being faithful to someone, sometimes, beliieve it or not, people
>say
> > no because it is wrong. There are times when we could commit a
>victimless
> > crime and get away with it, no Pirsigian policeman around for miles.
>But
>we
> > don't because we know it is illegal, even if it would have increased our
> > personal happiness to do it and we otherwise wanted to.
>
>RICK
>No doubt. Sometimes that is the case.
I think more than sometimes. It is just that we don't realize how often we
choose to do the expected moral thing rather than commit a crime, because we
don't even consider committing the crime. Once we start considering the
crime and posible punishment as an option, we've lost half the battle, and
that is when the policeman comes in.
Johnny
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